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The Warning of Death given to Henry II of France |
| posted by steven,
23-Jul-2009 12:59 |
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Thanks for this article Deb. Interesting would be an understatement.
I need to read this a few more times to get events into perspective. The question of rectification is a big question. I have many doubts concerning exact rectification. There is a couple of comments I would initially like to make.
First is Kolev's conclusion that the prediction was never made because there is no comment concerning that in the original chart with the Aries ascendant. That is pure assumption and potentially erroneous conjecture. It is assuming that Gauricus, if he made such a prediction, would without a doubt have had a comment in the original chart. That is not possible to prove true or false. It is just as possible he noted the event and rather than comment on the chart he put it in a letter to the King! We know for a fact the King did get a letter with the warning! Just because he makes no comment with or on the chart itself is not "evidence" he did not note it elsewhere! A letter to the King is substantial testimony that he did note a warning in the chart rather than the absence of a comment with the chart testifying to a lie. That conclusion is fraught with all kinds of unprovable assumptions.
Secondly it should be duly noted that nowhere does Gauricus warn the king on such a such a day or hour beware! Gauricus is following very closely the ancients who also never once made such a statement. Instead he warns
[quote:fe9b8cdb82]If he does not avoid duelling [u:fe9b8cdb82][b:fe9b8cdb82]around the 41st year[/b:fe9b8cdb82][/u:fe9b8cdb82]....[/quote:fe9b8cdb82]
For me this does not particularly or specifically indicate Gauricus was using a direction primarily - but knowing the techniques the ancients used Gauricus was concerned with some time period indicating danger which lends itself of course not only to directions of the ascendant but also Firdar, profections etc based on some delineation of the nativity.
There are more indicators of kingship (both luminaries in an angle for example) in the 1552 chart. The Sun in the exact degree of its exaltation and with Saturn in its domicile as a member of its dorophory. What I would have a hard time swallowing is that Gauricus would rectify it to such an extent that basic matters of natal delineation would be so drastically altered as putting both luminaries in the 12th.
It is the fact that the chart is rectified to nicely fit the Ascendant directed to Mars which bothers me since it ignores basic delineation of the kings chart-
just some initial thoughts
Steven |
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| posted by Deb,
23-Jul-2009 13:56 |
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Hi Steven
Thanks very much for your feedback – it is great to get responses when you publish something of personal interest :)
I agree with you. I wrote about this and presented on it a few times about five years ago, but after Kolev published his booklet I felt a bit embarrassed for having taken the chart so seriously, as if the whole thing had been proven to be a fake. I’m sure you realise that I’ve revived the story because I think the legs were kicked from under it prematurely, and because I get tired of the view that astrologers couldn’t have made the predictions they are reported to have made unless some sort of 'cheating' took place.
This is an especially good time to publish the article as we are in an ideal position to consider how such a dramatic and high profile death generates massive interest in rectification – simply compare with the MJ situation.
What I don’t want to claim (too strongly) is that I have ‘nailed the chart’, because I am very open to the view that either chart could have been reliably used -- actually, a little more open-minded than I might appear to be in the article, because I have since thought about the feedback it has generated. Meira Epstein, for example, contacted me to say that she thought the square to the Sun was enough to generate the prediction of blindness. Maybe,... or at least it probably ought to have got more attention than I gave it in the article. And I think other astrologers will have very valid opinions too. What’s important is that we don’t just ‘close the book’ on this, because there are some very powerful and very exciting astrological contacts, in this very interesting story that every astrologer ought to know something about! It shouldn’t just be about that one primary direction; however …
Originally I wrote the article as an introduction to the subject of primary directions – it is the first part of a tutorial that goes on to show how that particular ascendant>Mars direction is calculated, with step by step diagrams to show how it can be calculated with a calculator. I hope to include that tutorial later. (I have a background plan of ‘upping’ the promotion of primary directions, which has been carefully designed to maximise the focus brought about by Martin’s new book.) That explains why there is such a strong focus on the one contact in the article although I have tried to balance that with some of the more interesting background astrological events in the latest version that I have published online.
The most exciting thing for me was to remove a lot of the vagueness concerning the date of the accident and death, and to get reliable reports of the times involved. The transit connections are quite staggering when we look at the birth chart, accident chart and death chart together, and the fact that he died following | continued... | |
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| posted by margherita,
23-Jul-2009 15:19 |
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Dear Deborah,
I should obviously say I found your article very beautiful, so I printed before going out of home, because I could not wait to come back at home and read it.
Just some notes. Luca Gaurico was not from Venice, he came from the south of Italy and this was one of the reason of his quarrel with Girolamo Cardano, his worst rival.
Cardano was from the Northern Italy and he always liked to have contacts with the rest of just Reformed Europe, while Gaurico was a Catholic bishop, who spent part of his life in Rome, at the court of the Pope.
Whatever Kolev says, Gaurico was one of the greatest astrologers of his time, greater than Cardano maybe.
He lived in the Pope court for the only reason that when Alessandro Farnese was already old and without any possibility to become a Pope - he tried many times- Gaurico told him he would be elected.
When Alessandro became Pope (with the name of Paul III) he invited Gaurico in Rome as his astrologer..
When Melanchthon desired rectifying the birthchart of Luther, Gaurico - a Catholic bishop- was invited in Wittenberg and welcomed with special honours, not Cardano.
So hardly Gaurico needed to forge a birth chart...
I don't know which is the text of the letter Gaurico sent to Caterina, does he mention directions?
I agree with Meira Epstein because Gaurico follows Ptolemy, and according Ptolemy when Lights are in the first or in the seventh house or in the sixth one and they are afflicted by the malefics, especially when they are predominant (like Saturn here) they give many problems especially to the eyes.
During my lessons I saw several cases, in CieloeTerra they are especially found of eyes sickness :)
The same Gaurico in his Trattato d'Astrologia (I took from DIAL) repeats Ptolemy words:
"When the Ascendant, the seventh house and their ruler are infortuned by Saturn or Mars by opposition or square or by their presence, the native will have many diseases, especially if the Lights are infortuned in an angle. "
"When the Moon will be infortuned in angle together with the Sun or in opposition or in a square with it, the native will be lose an eye. "
".... ad if they were infortuned by Mars, the native will lose an eye by sword."
As you see, Gaurico is just repeating Ptolemy words.
Moreover Sun and Moon are together in Aries, "in via lactea, which damages eyes", Argoli will add.
Jean Stade in 1560 gives us another version :)
"Mars with Canis Maior, anareta, or with the right shoulder of Orion, when they are at the Ascendant afflict public happiness, or they cause injuries in tournament or kill with the rod in same way. Henry II Christian King of Frenchmen and other ones are the example we have, as the example of his misfortunes are given in the Astrological Commentary"
I have the idea Renaissance astrologers did not use stars as we do, maybe I'm wrong...
Thanks again for your wonderful article,
margherita |
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| posted by Deb,
23-Jul-2009 16:27 |
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Hi Margherita
Thanks for the useful feedback. I’ve corrected the reference to Gauricus being a ‘Venetian scholar’ to the simpler and more reliable reference to him being Italian.
Just to clarify, Rumen Kolev wasn’t suggesting that Gauricus forged the birth chart after the death, because he is also aware that Gauricus died before Henry.
I forgot all about the connection between afflictions in the Via Lactea (Milky Way) and the historical references to this chart. You are right, it is very significant. I mentioned it in an old forum thread which I’ll cross-link to here so I can come back and check this when I have more time. It is quite an old thread and I’ve collected a few other references to Via Lactea since then. Richard Saunders, in his [i:0ebc8adfd9]Astrological Judgement and Practice of Physic[/i:0ebc8adfd9] also mentions its malignant influence and positions it between 20th Gemini to 1st of Cancer and in the south from 6th – 16th Sag and 24th Sag to 5th Cap.
Via Lactea: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=379
PS - For all his personal flaws, I have a particular fondness for Cardano as well as a great respect - how could we possibly choose a favourite between them :) |
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| posted by margherita,
23-Jul-2009 17:03 |
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Dear Deborah
[quote:86fb488ac2="Deb"]
PS - For all his personal flaws, I have a particular fondness for Cardano as well as a great respect - how could we possibly choose a favourite between them :)[/quote:86fb488ac2]
I have consumed Italian translation of Cardano comment to the second book of Tetrabiblos and I could never live without :)
The only thing I don't like about Cardano is he completely dismissed Arab astrology, Gaurico on the other hand always took it in the due consideration.
But as every Italian I'm involved in North/South competition, and Cardano came from the North near Milan, Gaurico loved Rome, this is decisive to me :)
About sickness of eyes, it's just because I saw so many examples with damaged Lights together with azemena degrees and nebula, this is one of the favourite subjects in CieloeTerra, I don't know why
margherita |
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| posted by Deb,
24-Jul-2009 0:12 |
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I seem to be having problems with the nationalities of astrologers. Not only is it incorrect to call Lucas Gauricus a Venetian scholar (and I'll certainly never make that mistake again!), but it is also incorrect to call the Russian astrologer Rumen Kolev a Russian astrologer, because he’s not, he’s Bulgarian! He lives in a very nice Bulgarian city on the Black Sea. I don’t know what I am thinking lately!
It was very good of Rumen to get in touch and point that out whilst being complimentary about the article, especially since he’s become an integral element of my account of it.
Anyway, I corrected that point and reposted the article (again!).
Henry II - he was the French king. I'm pretty sure about that. |
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| posted by sasha_i,
24-Jul-2009 8:46 |
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[quote:b3314c047f]PS - For all his personal flaws, I have a particular fondness for Cardano as well as a great respect - how could we possibly choose a favourite between them Smile[/quote:b3314c047f]
Hello to all
Although I consider Cardanus a great astrologer I cannot close my eyes when I see the limits. That’s why I think it won’t diminish his importance if I bring in discussion a small error.
In his commentary to Ptolemy, book 3, chapter 5 (In his book), about brothers and sisters, he seems to present the classical mistake about Mc being a significator of brothers and sisters i.e. the children of native’s mother.
As correctly translated by Giuseppe Bezza, Ptolemy refers to the culminating sign from the places of mother. This translation and interpretation is certified also by the Anonymous commentator to Ptolemy, who recommends us to calculate the MC from the places of Venus or Moon (Venus in a day chart, Moon in a nocturnal chart).
This passage from Ptolemy (chapter 6 from the book 3) is interesting also for the fact that here it seems that Ptolemy mentions a whole sign house system ( he mentions the culminating sign from the place of mother), even if we are talking here only about a derived house system |
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| posted by matt23z,
24-Jul-2009 8:59 |
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I read and enjoyed the article in the magazine a while back. What made me smile was that he chose to ignore the advice and duly got what he had coming in the right year. Had he taken the advice and survived it would have made it difficult for scholars of astrology to check the rectification.At least he made his place in the hall of fame and got his wish. :)
Matt |
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| posted by margherita,
25-Jul-2009 7:44 |
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Hello Sasha,
[quote:765ee00909="sasha_i"]
This passage from Ptolemy (chapter 6 from the book 3) is interesting also for the fact that here it seems that Ptolemy mentions a whole sign house system ( he mentions the culminating sign from the place of mother), even if we are talking here only about a derived house system[/quote:765ee00909]
I'm going to read that chapter. I missed it.
Still I'm not sure Bezza thinks Ptolemy uses whole signs houses, at least never heard something like that from whoever in CieloeTerra.
margherita |
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| posted by sasha_i,
25-Jul-2009 9:01 |
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Hello Margherita,
No, it's a misunderstanding here. The reference to Bezza was only for the translation of the fragment. In Bezza's translation (and I guess interpretation) is clear that Ptolemy tells us to look at the "culminating sign from the places of mother" and not Mc of nativitiy.
"...il segno culminante rispetto al luogo materno..." page 60 from the electronic edition
The affirmation that this passage could be an argument for the use of a whole sign house system is mine. Actually, if you look at my post, it can be seen that I mentioned my considerations in another paragraph. |
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| posted by sasha_i,
25-Jul-2009 9:11 |
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| Steven, Deborah, please excuse me for diverting from the subject of the thread. |
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| posted by Deb,
25-Jul-2009 9:34 |
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Not a problem at all - discussion goes where it will.
Cardano might not have agreed that was as a mistake of course. He might have disagreed with your opinion. In fact, I think he would very definitely have disagreed with anyone who suggested he made some small mistake - he seemed a bit like that from what I've read. I imagine he would have made a very obstroculous correspondent in this forum :) |
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| posted by margherita,
25-Jul-2009 10:54 |
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[quote:2c9567cb5d="Deb"]Not a problem at all - discussion goes where it will.
Cardano might not have agreed that was as a mistake of course. He might have disagreed with your opinion. In fact, I think he would very definitely have disagreed with anyone who suggested he made some small mistake - he seemed a bit like that from what I've read. I imagine he would have made a very obstroculous correspondent in this forum :)[/quote:2c9567cb5d]
What does it mean "obstroulous" ?!?
Cardano had a really bad temperament and he is very arrogant in the way he writes, but he was a great astrologer, what a pity he was from North ;)
p.s. and no problem, Sasha. Just Placido was starting move in his grave :)
margherita |
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| posted by sasha_i,
25-Jul-2009 11:29 |
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Here it is what I found on internet:
obstroculous - someone who is difficult
Someone who is awkward for the sake of being awkward |
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| posted by Deb,
25-Jul-2009 11:33 |
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| I didn't realise the word wasn't well known. Perhaps because it was often said about me when I was younger :) |
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| posted by steven,
25-Jul-2009 11:36 |
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I think what our dear Deb is saying is that Cardan was a right stroppy fellow :D
(Stroppy= British colloq. for obstreperous = unruly, hard to deal with, impudent, implies an unruliness that is noisy in resisting control)
How could anyone call you that :shock: |
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| posted by Deb,
25-Jul-2009 11:55 |
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obstreperous is a new one on me!
[quote:0afb51a78e]How could anyone call you that?[/quote:0afb51a78e]
Defeats me ... Maybe because my favourite pastime is arguing...
One of the things I can't help liking about Cardan is that you really get a sense of his personality in his writing. It is true that it doesn't seem to be a very nice personality, but he is so arrogant and full of himself, that he describes his faults in great detail. At the end, it seems to me that his emotional frustration powered his need to be intellectually brilliant, but it never brought him satisfaction. The story of his attempt to stop his son's execution is tragic. He had no friends to help him because he'd made enemies of all the people who could have helped and they were pleased to see him brought low. For that fact alone I would be willing to understand the enormous chip he had on his shoulder and make all his enemies my enemies too. ... But if only he wasn't from the North ! :) |
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| posted by Tom,
25-Jul-2009 12:11 |
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[color=darkblue:9e555728ea]I haven't had my vocabulary increased in a long time. I can't wait to use the word.
For those who might not know, and I hope I haven't mentioned this recently, there is a very good biography of Jerome Caradan titled [i:9e555728ea]Cardano's Cosmos [/i:9e555728ea]written by Anthony Grafton, Princeton University Press. Cardan was difficult, but he had a difficult life. He was illegitimate and that stigma hurt his chances at the University and finding employment. His son, a physician, was executed for murdering his wife. Life was not easy for him. He was also brilliant. For those of you how know some mechanics, you may have heard of the "universal joint," two rods joined together at a joint that permits a rod to "bend" in any direction. It is used in mechanics today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_joint
Cardan invented it. He also invented a form of algebra. We're not talking ordinary man here.
Unfortunately, very little of his astrology has been translated into English.
He is well worth knowing though.
Tom[/color:9e555728ea] |
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| posted by steven,
25-Jul-2009 12:14 |
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| Now I understand why Morin was constantly on Cardan's case. They were cut of the same clothe. What do we say....likes repel and opposites attract. I think Morin took it on himself to prove he was the bigger "whinner" though - - - - and in my opinion succeeded! |
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| posted by steven,
25-Jul-2009 12:20 |
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When European car manufacturers started producing the first front wheel drives, the universal axeling to the front wheel joints were called appropriately - Cardan-
A bit of trivia!! |
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| posted by Deb,
25-Jul-2009 12:26 |
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Both Cardan and Morin seemed to delight in explaining how their 12th house Sun's perfectly described their odious ways. I have always thought that there are a lot of similarities between them. But Morin had privileges whereas Cardan did have many tables turned against him from the start because he was illegitimate. I know less about Morin’s life, but I’m sure Tom will correct me if I'm wrong.
Historical characters do generally dwell upon their faults and flaws, and maybe we don't understand how this was actually an attempt to be humble or self-penitent. Kepler does it too, in some of his letters, but from everything I can see Kepler was a thoroughly decent man, driven by his conscience. Though I do get the sense that he could be obstroculous too. Maybe all astrologers are. We all like to think of ourselves as free-thinkers today, but it wasn't so easy to be a free-thinker in the past when society's limits were more rigid. |
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| posted by Tom,
25-Jul-2009 12:35 |
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[color=darkblue:da2f96f2c3]Although it is obvious I really enjoy Morin, I think he was more than a little unfair with Cardan. Criticism is OK. If you publish anything, you have to expect some criticism. But if we read Holden's translations carefully and read his notes (I am footnote obsessed. I read them all), you'll see at times Morin either misread or misstated some of the people he criticized. There are differences in the way the two men approached astrology. Cardan tried to develop Ptolemy; Morin tried to bury him.
I note in the rectification thread Steven mentioned Dr. Dykes observation about the apparent contemporary need to control astrology. The observation is valid; it just isn't a new phenomenon.
The way I understand Morin's astrology is that he was searching for precision. Morin is also the first major astrologer in my mind that criticized Ptolemy in a meaningful way. Ptolemy is not God. Cardan was the best known astrologer of Morin's day, although he died 7 years before Morin was born. He was a natural target. It is also noteworthy that Morin attacks some of Cardan's philosophy and ideas. He never says, to my knowledge, that Cardan was an inferior astrologer. His only fault was not agreeing with Morin.
From what I can gather of their respective personalities, Cardan was difficult and grumpy - maybe an angry man. Morin was pompous, full of himself, and very French. Nasty personal attacks are not limited to Morin. If we read Grafton's biography, we'll see that Cardan and Guarico were equally adept at exchanging insults. There is very little new under the Sun.
Tom
[/color:da2f96f2c3] |
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| posted by Tom,
25-Jul-2009 12:45 |
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[color=darkblue:accc103f20]Morin did have a somewhat easier life, but he had money problems. One of the side benefits of studying these people is the realization of how lucky I am to be born at a time and place where my life is determined by my efforts and abilities, not by the conditions of my birth. Sure there are limits, but there are always limits. Cardan succeeded in a society that wanted nothing to do with him. If I went through my whole life having to endure nothing but people who wanted nothing to do with me, it would most likely be my fault.
Morin was university educated and had some social status. He was an advisor to Richelieu, a precarious position if there ever was one, but I think he had money problems from time to time. He did not suffer the social ostracism Cardan did, or if he did, it was not for the same reasons.
One story told by I think, Thorndike is worthy of note. While a child one of Morin's siblings asked him if one of his parents had to die, which would he prefer? This is the sort of thing kids do today. Morin, quite young, said he would prefer it if his mother died, and of course the sibling ran to his mother and told her. None of us would like hearing this, but we would probably chalk it off to a youngster who didn't know any better than to keep those things to himself. Morin's mother cut him out of the will.
Morin did blame his 12th house for everything that happened to him, but credited Jupiter in the 12th for not killing him off. Typical astrologer. Everything is the chart's fault.
Tom[/color:accc103f20] |
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| posted by margherita,
25-Jul-2009 13:32 |
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Dear Deborah, Sasha, Tom, Steven and thanks for your explication.
margherita |
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| posted by Tom,
13-Aug-2009 1:53 |
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[color=darkblue:c64cc0bf01]After making more than my usual share of mistakes and getting my JC and GC mixed up, I finally manged to do a solar return for 1559 based on a 3 Gemini 00 natal ASC.
The natal ASC DSC axis is reversed. Mars (lances) is on the Sagittarius (horses) ASC. The Moon ruler of the natal second is in the SR second in detriment opposing the SR 8th (Regiomontanus) which she rules. She is trine Saturn in Taurus in the 5th (sport) on Algol. Saturn rules the natal 8th. The Sun, co ruler of the SR 8th and ruler of the natal 4th of endings is at the bottom of the chart.
Interesting.
Tom[/color:c64cc0bf01] |
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| posted by Tom,
13-Aug-2009 21:35 |
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[b:3d71a3f4c8]Expanded version of the above. I posted this at the solar returns group earlier and verbatim.[/b:3d71a3f4c8]
[color=darkblue:3d71a3f4c8]Deb Houlding recently republished an article she wrote concerning the prediction allegedly made by Luca Gaurico concerning the death of Henry II of France. The article is here: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pdf/henry_II.pdf
I suggest it be read for all the necessary background material. For those who don’t know anything about the incident, Gaurico is said to have sent Henry a letter warning him not to joust, a favorite sport of his, in his 41st year due to the danger of head injury, blindness, possibly leading to death. In June of 1559 the King seeing two lances remaining decided to have a joust with a knight. When the two horsemen met, the lances splintered (common) and two large splinters flew through the king’s visor one piercing his jaw and going into his head the other piercing his eye. The king died an agonizing death 11 days later. Note: we cannot accuse Gaurico of rectifying the chart ex post facto as he died the year before the events transpired.
The question Deb’s article raises is this: since it is well established that the chart said to be used by Garico is known to be rectified, was it rectified after the fact, in order to make the predictions seem true, or was it rectified prior to the events as was the common practice of the day? Read the article for that interesting story.
Gadbury published what was said to be the rectified chart but he left the minutes off the angles and used whole numbers only. The data I used is as follows:
Henry II of France
April 10, 1519 NS (Gregorian Calendar)
7:11:04 LMT
St Germain en Laye, France
48 N 54
002 E 05
3Gemini 00 rises
Now Deb gives 9:04 LMT but when I do that I get Cancer rising so the above is my adjustment designed to get 3 Gemini on the ASC like Gadbury had. Therefore this could be off by about 4 minutes of clock time. That doesn’t affect what follows.
The rectified chart permits the direction of ASC to Mars at age 40 (41st year). Mars of course is sharp objects as well as violence and Mars is sitting on the fixed star Castor (If rising: Blindness bad eyes, injuries to the faces, stabs, wounds, imprisonment.” – Robson
Is this enough to make such a prediction? I doubt it, but if he did in fact make such an observation, he didn’t actually predict the king would die that year. He told him there were dangers to his life and he could avoid them if he avoided jousting. This is what prompted me to look at the returns using Morin’s methods.
1) Does the chart “promise” a violent death? One could argue, a tad lamely, that the direction is part of the promise and therefore the chart in fact does show potential for violent death. OK, but is there anything else? Aldebaran rises “… danger of | continued... | |
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| posted by Olivia,
13-Aug-2009 22:26 |
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That's a very nice delineation, Tom.
But a question of history here: Wasn't the letter sent well before the King's death? I believe Gaurico pre-deceased Henry, so there's little chance he rectified the chart to make it look good after the fact.
Or am I mistaken here? |
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| posted by margherita,
14-Aug-2009 10:06 |
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Someone has the text of Gaurico letter?
Where it could be found?
margherita |
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| posted by Deb,
14-Aug-2009 10:39 |
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What I know of this is detailed in my article. The report of the letter was made by a contemporary historian. I don't know that the letter still exists (the king's friend told him to throw it on the fire). And the suggestion that the chart was rectified after the death is based on later publications of the chart differing from one that Gauricus published several years before the letter was supposed to have been written. However, we know that Gauricus was doing ongoing rectification, so he may have recified it himself (between the earlier publication and his own death), or some other astrologer might have done it after Henry's death. We don't know.
Thanks for the report of the Solar Return Tom. By the way, have you read the book "Transits and Solar Returns: A New System of Analysis for Two Ancient Methods"
by Ciro Discepolo. I have only just heard about it but it looks good. I'm thinking of getting it.
Deb |
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| posted by margherita,
14-Aug-2009 11:09 |
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[quote:d206852ef7="Deb"]What I know of this is detailed in my article. The report of the letter was made by a contemporary historian. I don't know that the letter still exists (the king's friend told him to throw it on the fire).[/quote:d206852ef7]
Thanks for your kind reply. Obviously I read the article and I liked very much, as Italian readers liked your interview made by Garry Phillipson.
It was published as opening article, I hope you had your copy too, but I believe yes, Dante Valente is from Milan, he is very precise.
About the letter, for what I understand surfing the net some references were included in a prognostication for the Duke of Ferrara in 1552. It is mentioned by his biographer Percopo at the end of 1800. So Percopo read something, if you say the letter to Caterina was destroyed, it should be another advise.
I believed someone had read exactly the text, or maybe Kolev quoted it, I could not understand, but now I understand nobody did, so the content is not clear.
[quote:d206852ef7]"Transits and Solar Returns: A New System of Analysis for Two Ancient Methods" by Ciro Discepolo. I have only just heard about it but it looks good. I'm thinking of getting it.
[/quote:d206852ef7]
I'm not sure it's traditional. Ciro Discepolo is very famous for relocated solar returns in Italy, especially because he sends people in the most strange and impossible to reach places in the world.
Still he has several followers. This is his blog.
http://cirodiscepolo.blogspot.com/
and a chapter of his book
http://www.solarreturns.com/#SolarReturns-thepreface
Enjoy it :)
margherita |
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Deb Houlding is a practitioner and teacher of traditional Western Astrology, specialising in horary, with a particular interest in the history, philosophy and early development of astrological symbolism. She is best known for being the editor of the Traditional Astrologer Magazine (Ascella, 1993-2000), author of The Houses: Temples of the Sky (Wessex 1996), and host of the astrology site www.skyscript.co.uk. Her personal website is at www.debhoulding.co.uk
