hi vicki,

that is interesting! thanks for sharing.. i don't follow it all, so this news on boris is interesting..

i am curious to know how you direct the lunar return.. do you have a biwheel chart that you can show it's use in relation to boris johnson? maybe you'd like to start a thread on boris? thanks..

Hi James

I don't use a biwheel. I just look at the lunar return chart , treat every house as 2 1/2 days.(I realise there are about 29 days in a lunar month so there's a slight discrepancy.) I direct the Moon according to how many days the event is away so moving it 60 degrees will be equivalent to 5 days (i.e. 2 houses).

It's symbolic arc direction 1 degree method which I use all the time (rather than Solar Arc). I have to spend so much time lying down due to my illness that I memorise charts and delineate them and use symbolic arc directions in my head. I have a photographic memory which comes in useful in my situation! I have quite a number of charts in my memory bank!

I would have liked to display the lunar chart here but I haven't learnt how to do that yet. I will have to set my mind to it when I'm feeling a bit better which is why I would prefer not to start a thread on Boris, not feeling up to it. I also don't think I've much more to say about Boris except to say that we should never under estimate an Orion fighter such as him!

Thanks for your interest. I'll work on the images thing!

thanks vicki! i will pm you a response.

James_M wrote

it is a bit the same here with this brexit vote... breaking it down into modern, traditional, or eclectic astrological approaches does as much to muddy the waters as it does to clarify anything, but those that like their walls of separation will continue to use them... what was the technique that was used to predict the outcome one way or the other? there were countless techniques and approaches!

Heh James! I would really prefer it if you didn?t bury a comment that is quite obviously aimed at me in a supposed reply to Alex. If you want to make a criticism that is fair enough but please be straightforward about it. I put together that list of mundane predictions on the referendum as a basic piece of research to refute the refrain I have put up with on this forum since I became moderator in 2010 that mundane astrology can only do 20/20 commentary after the event rather than prediction. I hope I have put that myth to bed! But its obviously no academic dissertation on the subject.

I am perfectly aware that astrologers use a variety of predictive techniques. That is why I am contributing to an article in the next issue of the UK Astrological Journal which will give an overview on the referendum focusing on precisely that topic.

James_M wrote:

i continue to see astrology as a type of art form.. the interpretations are very individual.. how we see the astrology has a lot of subjectivity built into it..

Well of course traditionally astrology is known as an art and science. And some older sources refer to the astrologer as the artist. But where is the balance struck? If we go with your view then all techniques are subjective and therefore ultimately irrelevant. In which case it really makes no difference what we do since it all comes down to the individual. This reminds me a lot of Geoffrey Cornelius and his divinatory view of the moment of astrology. Its more about the quality of the astrologer. At the other extreme is the view that some approaches to astrology are objectively more accurate than others in astrology. This spurs research projects, statistics etc. I will not deny I think the first view has some validity. Yet as an astrologer we all resonate will certain ideas and necessarily reject others. For example choice of zodiac, house system, rulership system, and the predictive tools we utilise. So are these differences just like the paints selected by an artist or are some objectively better tools at our disposal?Therein lies the question without any ready answers I fear?

James_M wrote:

and finally - a vote that is so close doesn't have the sharp outlines given a yes or no - winner take all - that it looks like it has after the fact! 52 to 48 percent is still quite close...

However, close one side did win. Look at your own Quebec referendum in 1995. That was in fact far closer since the Canadian government only won by a mere 1% yet Canada moved on as one country. I think some techniques are easier to delineate than others in this way. Horary or an opening poll chart have clear significators for each camp. So does an Aries ingress chart although that is less focused on such a contest explicitly. On the other hand I think natal charts are harder to reduce to such criteria.

Mark

Mark wrote:
Heh James! I would really prefer it if you didn?t bury a comment that is quite obviously aimed at me in a supposed reply to Alex. If you want to make a criticism that is fair enough but please be straightforward about it.

i didn't think it was aimed at you, but more a comment i felt like addressing generally.. i happened to be motivated by alex's post, but obviously wandered - like a planet, lol - which i am prone to do.. straight forward enough for you?

Mark wrote: If we go with your view then all techniques are subjective and therefore ultimately irrelevant.

well, i never said that and i would never say that... it is only those folks who are so attached to an objective one only who would likely make a comment like that! i think all views are quite relevant, regardless if they are viewed as subjective or not. however, this is like electrical code or something - some folks work towards defining ''astrologers code'' and it must conform to certain ''objective''( there's that word again) standards or it doesn't pass their bar forgetting to realize there are other ways of arriving at conclusions, then only the standard ones - or to use the astrology manual code words here - traditional or modern ones..

Mark wrote: However, close one side did win.

Mark

true enough, and i did and do recognize that. however i can't shake the impression of what appears as some cocky attitudes about those who '''got it right'' or that someone used a particular system that must obviously be brilliant when in the margin here is extremely close.. or that it must be presented in some dogmatic format that is considered acceptable or not by you - there - that is a statement directed right at you.. but then there is the matter of deadlines for important astrological magazines and etc to keep up with!

Vicki wrote:

What was particularly revealing though were the profections a la Vettius Valens in my Janus software for the 2 1/2 days around the referendum. Johnson's Pars Hyleg conjoin Part of Fortune "gave" to his MC conjoining North node. Cameron's House 10 gave to House 12, his Mc gave to Pluto conjoining Uranus and his House 8 gave to House 10.
Now I do find these profections compelling evidence.

I couldn't agree more about the power of profections! I have been advocating them here for some years. Combined with solar returns I actually used them as a key technique to predict the outcome of the Scottish referendum in 2014. They also helped with working out the outcome of last years British General election. And the EU referendum was no exception. Profections rock!

Although i have written about Johnson's profections elsewhere and indeed even gave a talk on profections last month where I mentioned Johnson I should share my own reasons why I thought Johnson was favoured for the referendum at least.

Johnson entered a 5th house profectional year on his birthday just a few days before the referendum with Aquarius his profected ASC sign. This made Saturn Johnson's LoY. While Saturn had previously been his LoY too this year was different. Firstly, in the Aries and Cancer ingress Aquarius was the ASC sign and Saturn the UK LoY. So Johnson's 5th house/Aquarius profection brought him into harmony with a much larger cycle and it could be said he helped to personally channel this astrological influence in the country.

As I have stated previously in the forum the opposite was true for David Cameron. The Aquarian focus of the ingress charts were in opposition to both David Cameron's Loy Mars and his Moon in Leo.

The Moon during the day of the referendim was in Aquarius too. This put the referendum Moon in Johnson's annual first profectional house. Again a sign of harmony. In contrast the Aquarian Moon was in the opposing the sign to Cameron's LOY & Moon.

Saturn Johnson's LoY was Rx but it was applying to a sextile of his ASC.

Boris Johnson's continuous profections were actually quite stellar on referendum day. His profected Sun was trine his natal sun, his profected moon was trine his natal Moon. His profected ASC was trine his natal ASC and his profected ASC was conjunct his Lot of Fortune. One would almost think that date had been selected for Johnson.

So why has it all gone pear shaped in his leadership race? Time to look at that in a new thread I think. This one has got incredibly long and in practical terms too long to follow. I would rather not drift into new topics here.

Mark

Mark wrote:
Alex62 wrote:

Based on Pl transit to Cameron So I predicted his victory in the elections. Again based on events in his history. This transit is still going on and that's why I said "David Cameron does not have at the moment any signs of bad period or losing his position"

Well I wouldn't feel bad about that assessment Alex. A lot of very experienced astrologers came to exactly the same conclusion that David Cameron would not lose the referendum because his chart looked too strong. For example Marjorie commented earlier this year:

''....all in all, I?d doubt the UK would leave ? from the astrology I mean. Cameron?s charts look too chipper to fail at the moment.''

If a highly experienced political astrologer like Marjorie Orr can go astray I dont think you should be so hard on yourself Alex.


Mark

Thank you for your advice Mark...


I'm not hard on myself, but considering that the Cameron his position perceived as its own mission, should I leave the space that Cameron can their own will leave their own mission. Because this is his horoscope allows the possibility, if happen the circumstances under which can not accomplish the mission in a manner that he was imagined.

But we will see how the situation will unfold in the coming months given that again has good aspects as in the previous elections ... will it result in giving up or will revise its own mission and may remain in position PM

Alex

james_m wrote:... while i think it's a great idea to study past events to see how they appear based on a previous transit, one will have to also ignore or include these other tools that many astrologers use in order to better assess an outcome on a transit too!

in the case of the transit of pluto square camerons sun, what was it you looked at in his past? the conjunction, or? he has only had the conjunction, 45, or 60 prior to this square transit to his sun.. as vicki also wonders and which i am going to respond to - i think the relationship in the chart itself between the planets involved has bearing on how a transit might unfold. but, one still needs to consider the other predictive tools that have been typically used to get a better read on an outcome.. relying only on transits is a recipe for disaster as i see it!
cheers james

I watched the previous conjunction

Monitoring of past events is nothing new in astrology. More and more astrologer has a thus approach because it gives more comprehensive insight.

? At the same time knowing these previous events allows the comparison whether a future event may be stronger or weaker in relation to an event in the past.

Narrows the meaning of the symbol, because the reference to the past knows exactly what kind of character of the event can be ...

Easier to predict the positive or negative direction of events, etc., etc.

? ... but as you said, this is a different theme

Alex

Vicki wrote:I also think Alex does very well with English not being his first language.

I find it very difficult to distinguish the good from the bad in astrology. Squares and oppositions for instance often seem to bring success. I think it was particularly hard to assess David Cameron's position after he won a general election only last year. How to see him losing after a short space of time?...

Thank You Vicki...

In astrology, does not exist good or bad.
For example Ju is essentially an expansion ... without positive
or negative sign

Will it be positive or negative depends on several factors

1st Context of life will show whether it will be positive or negative

2nd Natal planet positions, what aspects has a and with which the planets has a aspect

3 rd Previous transits in history also indicate a positive or negative sign

corny example

For example woman in relationship with a man, women now have transit Ju 120 natal Mo

? This aspect means that the woman of increased emotional needs.
( among other things )

If the partner fulfills the woman's increased emotional needs she will be happy, if not fulfills, woman will be dissatisfied.

This is the context of life. Without knowing the context of life is difficult to identify whether something will be positive or negative

But this is also another theme

Alex

So I've given myself a little time to think things thru. Genuinely, and validated by some publication I make, I couldn't find any clear answer to how the vote would go.

I felt the conjunction of Jupiter with the Node, and trine Pluto would bring us out of the awful negativity that Mar / Uranus, and Saturn Neptune had dealt to a peak on the 18th and 19th June. Full Moon adding more truculence. I thought the positive would beat the negative.

The inconjunction on the morning of the 23rd June between Mercury and Pluto also suggested some sort of complete negative mental breakdown.

But I could only point to where I thought it was going and of course the really big mistake I was making, and maybe others too, was that the vote wasn't definitive as to the UK leaving the EU.

Looking for things in UK or EEC charts was pretty well wrong to point to the UK leaving.

That still may NOT happen. The question was really what do the people want to happen. I'd thought a good horary chart would have been the best as it would have given timings too.

So I think we are all too early to say we know the answer. Probably back to the drawing board.

H

The Article 50 was triggered yesterday so the UK formally declared their intention of leaving the EU.

"Britain?s Ambassador to the EU Sir Tim Barrow personally passed the letter to Mr Tusk in Brussels at 12.20pm. (29/03/2017)"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 57116.html

Looking at the astrological chart it doesn't much look like a horoscope of divorce. I think that one day the UK will revoke their decision.

If you mean that you looked at a chart for today I am not sure that is has any validity. Mundane astrology depends on longer timescales. One would need to check either a foundation chart for thr EU or a conjunctional chart of Saturn/ Jupiter or Saturn / Mars
There seems to be a lot of wishful thinking by pro EC idealists and indeed pro EC cynics who just want free money from Briitain and housing,jobs and benefits to be provided by the UK for their citizens because they cannot provide themselves.
It could be the European project implodes by itself and Brexit is just a step in the process.
That is what both astrologers and profane pundits need to address