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Cruiser1 wrote:
Hello and thank you for your comments and appreciation of Astrolog! Smile In Astrolog's chart sphere, if you unrestrict the Asc/MC and house cusp objects, then they will be calculated in whatever standard house system is currently active, and displayed on the sphere at their zodiac position and at zero latitude on the ecliptic. That's the only reason why Campanus houses may be preferred when displaying the sphere, because with Campanus the house cusp objects happen to align with the sphere's 3D house boundaries when on the ecliptic. However, remember that with 3D houses, there are no house cusps in the standard sense, or at least house boundaries can't be defined with a single zodiac position. That's where the term "3D houses" comes from, because one needs to take into account planetary latitude in addition to longitude when defining house placement.
Thanks for your response. Bear with me as I am not the brightest bulb in the box when it comes to the maths here. However, if you unrestrict for any house system am I right in thinking your basic frame of reference is local space rather than zodiac since it seems what you describe as 3D houses do not rely on derived houses from these? I can see how this resolves any issues with polar latitudes since you are not deriving houses from the ecliptic. I suppose its a question then whether the price one has to pay ie loss of connection between the zodiac with houses, is acceptable or not.

Assuming I understand you correctly I am very curious what you use to calculate the the first house with? Is this the east point/local eastern horizon? In other words The point on the Celestial Equator rising on the Eastern Horizon at birth. The intersection of the Eastern Horizon, Prime Vertical, and Celestial Equator?

Mark wrote:
Equal and whole sign houses also fail to work in polar zones. My point about Campanus at higher latitudes was quite specific. Basically Campanus becomes unworkable at higher latitudes much earlier than any other quadrant system I am aware of.
Cruiser1 wrote:
How do these house systems fail to work in polar zones? Equal, Whole, and Campanus houses are defined at all latitutes and all times, and always produce house cusp positions that can be used and displayed. That's no different from when nearer to the equator. Of course, one may not like the house cusps positions produced, and may judge them to be astrologically inaccurate, but that's a different issue.
Well perhaps from a rather abstract mathematical position you are right. But I have a grand trine in earth so for me ''failing to work'' is a practical as well as a mathematical issue. That fact that Campanus house cusps become ridiculously bunched up or stretched out even before you get into the artic circle let alone at even higher latitudes makes them completely unworkable as I see it.

Lets look at a real chart rather than discuss abstractions. I have put up a chart for next week ie 12:00 Noon on November 17th in Anchorage, Alaska, USA. If you were an astrologer asked to delineate a birth chart with this horoscope using Campanus houses how would you get on?
Image
We have house 8 house cusps within 2 zodiac signs. In fact those 8 house cusps fall within just 50 zodiacal degrees in the chart. To me at least that is a totally unworkable chart. And the chart is only for a latitude of 61N so still not even in the Artic Circle.

To be fair though the underlying difficulty is not that of quadrant houses ie just the MC getting closer to the ASC. I would suggest all conventional horoscopic houses fail in polar latitudes because 4 zodiac signs dont rise at all just within the Artic circle and further north that goes up to 6 signs.

http://www.projecthindsight.com/images/ ... nTimes.pdf

Assuming this is correct I would suggest this renders whole sign or equal houses impractical at the Poles too. How can you work with a zodiacal house system without half the zodiac signs?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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EdF wrote:Anyone got a time/date/location for one of these polar charts that breaks down in, say, Placidus?
Placidus and Koch houses are undefined and can not be computed for locations inside the Arctic or Antarctic Circles. If you want a polar chart that doesn't work in Placidus, simply start with any chart and set its latitude to 67 degrees or more. All other house systems are well defined and produce valid results at all locations and times. Astrolog and other programs will switch to another house system (i.e. Porphyry) if one attempts to use Placidus or Koch in the polar zone.
Mark wrote:However, if you unrestrict for any house system am I right in thinking your basic frame of reference is local space rather than zodiac since it seems what you describe as 3D houses do not rely on derived houses from these. I can see how this resolves any issues with polar latitudes since you are not deriving houses from the ecliptic. I suppose its a question then whether the price one has to pay ie loss of connection between the zodiac with houses, is acceptable or not.
The "loss of connection" between the zodiac and the houses is a good thing, because they're not supposed to be connected in the first place! :' Signs and houses are two different things, with two different coordinate systems. Signs of the zodiac are 12 equally sized sections of space, whose "equator" is the ecliptic. Houses are 12 equally sized sections of sky on the local horizon, whose "equator" is the prime vertical.
Mark wrote:Assuming I understand you correctly I am very curious what you use to calculate the the first house with? Is this the east point/local eastern horizon? In other words The point on the Celestial Equator rising on the Eastern Horizon at birth. The intersection of the Eastern Horizon, Prime Vertical, and Celestial Equator?
None of these questions or issues even apply when using 3D houses. ;) With 3D houses the first house isn't a single zodiac position, but rather a wedge shaped section of local sky. There is no "first house cusp" with 3D houses, or at least nothing that can be expressed as a single zodiac position, because the boundaries of the orange wedge span multiple degrees. With 3D houses, the first house is the section of local sky below the eastern horizon. Its boundaries are the east half of the horizon (forming the 12/1 house boundary) and the great circle 1/3 of the sky below it (forming the 1/2 house boundary).
Mark wrote:That fact that Campanus house cusps become ridiculously bunched up or stretched out even before you get into the artic circle let alone at even higher latitudes makes them completely unworkable as I see it. We have house 8 house cusps within 2 zodiac signs. To be fair though the underlying difficulty is not that of quadrant houses ie just the MC getting closer to the ASC. How can you work with a zodiacal house system without half the zodiac signs?
I claim houses being bunched up or stretched out isn't a problem. Even near the equator you can have intercepted signs and houses. Interpreting "multiple interceptions" is basically the same. All zodiac signs are present in a chart and affect one's psyche, just that their influence may be spread across multiple houses or only be focused within part of a single house. The interpretation process doesn't really change. Campanus is no different from any other quadrant based house system, in that all quadrant systems produce "multiple interceptions" at higher latitudes when the Asc and MC are close together.
Astrolog 7.60 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm :)

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A bit difficult to get used to working with, especially for extreme latitude charts. Those at more moderate latitudes are easier to follow. But, this is Placidus at 69N. The house longitudes are in the table at the bottom left.
Image

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waybread wrote:
EdF wrote:....

Finally, an astrological koan that is related to the polar failure apparition: What if domification and ecliptic views are simply that - two different ways of viewing the astrological state of an event? What if they do not necessarily need to be forced into a unitary synthesized format to do astrology? What if each represents a distinct dimension of astrological meaning?

....

- Ed
Hi, Ed. Can you say in layperson's (i. e., lay astrologer's) terms what would be the logical outcome for interpreting a nativity, of viewing domification and ecliptic views as offering different dimensions of astrological meaning, compared with what we do now?
Take a look at Walter's that is a couple past yours. His answer to Mark is pretty much my answer, expressed more clearly.

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EdF wrote:But, this is Placidus at 69N. The house longitudes are in the table at the bottom left.
The picture embedded in the post above has expired and can't be viewed. However, one can reproduce it themselves on astro.com by doing a "Astrodienst Fixed Stars" wheel with the Placidus system in the polar zone. A permanently hosted picture of such a wheel can be seen at: https://www.astro.com/imwiki/en/Plac_polar.gif

The image contains the text: "Attention: Beyond the polar circles, a Placidus house may cross the zodiac in several points or it may not do so at all." That means my statement that Placidus is undefined in the (Ant)arctic Circle isn't entirely correct (even if software chooses to avoid the situation). Instead, Placidus can't define single house cusps for the 12 houses. Placidus could be expressed in a 3D model, resulting in "3D Placidus". That's similar to how the current "3D houses" in Astrolog could be considered "3D Campanus".

Future versions of Astrolog may support alternate 3D house models, such as Regiomontanus, whose 3D model can be seen below. However, I admit I like the current "3D Campanus" model the best, since it seems the simplest and most correct. It has all 12 houses always the same size in 3D area, forming a symmetric "orange wedge" model on the sphere of the local horizon. That's like how the 12 signs of the zodiac are also always the same size, and form a symmetric "orange wedge" model on the celestial sphere in space.
Image
Astrolog 7.60 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm :)

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Seems we're pretty much on the same page in terms of principles, if not necessarily details. That is gratifying!

Sorry about the expired graphic - didn't know they did that.

- Ed

Re: Thanks

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astralwanderer wrote:Mark's point about the 'collapse' of Campanus houses at even quite modest latitudes is also a concern for me. However, the following data shows that the difficulties might not quite be quite as challenging as they first seem. Statistically, Porpyry and Campanus offer the same degree of significance (or greater) than Placidus/Gauquelin divisions of the sphere.
This is interesting research data! :' I know that Gauquelin Sectors are computed using a technique similar to Placidus cusps, and in fact can be approximated with them (see Astrolog's "-l0" command switch). It looks like similar techniques can be done with other house systems too.
EdF wrote:As an aside, I consider these representations as "2D" - two astronomical coordinates are represented. Conventional charts are 1D - only the "longitudinal" coordinate is represented.
You're right, at least when considering a single planet. However, I use the name "3D houses" because it's considering the set of planets in a chart as a whole. A standard chart has all planets placed on the 2D plane of the ecliptic, and ignores their 3D latitudes rising up out of that plane. A 3D chart sphere works with the full 3D model of the planets in space with their different latitudes.
Astrolog 7.60 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm :)

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As a followup to the above, 3D houses are actually similar to Gauquelin sectors in several respects. Gauquelin sectors are computed based on the rising and setting times of planets, which is similar to 3D houses which are also based on the local horizon. When a planet is above the horizon, it's in Gauquelin sectors 1-18, and when a planet is below the horizon it's in sectors 19-36. That's similar to how when a planet is above the horizon, it's always in the 7th through 12th 3D houses, and when a planet is below the horizon it's always in the 1st through 6th 3D houses. Also, when a planet rises, it moves from Gauquelin sector 36 to sector 1, which is similar to how a planet rising moves from the 1st 3D house to the 12th 3D house. When a planet sets, it moves from Gauquelin sector 18 to sector 19, which is similar to how a planet setting moves from the 7th 3D house to the 6th 3D house.

I've composed the following Web page about 3D houses, which summarizes many of the points made on this thread: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog/ast3d.htm
Astrolog 7.60 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm :)

Astrolog 6.40

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A new version of Astrolog has been released, and the new version 6.40 updates "3D houses" and "chart spheres" in several ways. :) Transit searches now support 3D houses, and will display when planets ingress into different 3D houses (and due to the 3D geometry, these ingress date/times will differ from all ordinary 2D house systems).

Chart spheres are a good way to visualize 3D houses, however they now have the option to show 2D houses. Therefore they're also a good way to visualize the difference between 2D and 3D houses. Below are two chart spheres side by side, which are identical except the left sphere is using 2D houses, and the right 3D houses.

In the left sphere with 2D houses, planetary latitude is ignored when determining house position, which means the 12 house "orange wedges" share the same poles as the 12 sign "orange wedges". Notice how all 12 houses have areas which are above and below the horizon, which is counterintuitive.

In the right sphere with 3D houses, the 12 house "orange wedges" are aligned with the local horizon, and always have their poles at the north and south points on the horizon. In this model, all of houses 1-6 are always below the horizon, and all of houses 7-12 are above the horizon. Because the poles are different, planetary latitude needs to be taken into account to correctly determine house position.
Image
For a comparison not involving chart spheres, below is Astrolog's local horizon display (which is basically a chart sphere so unrolled so it's flat). There are two charts side by side, which are again identical except the left is using 2D houses, and the right 3D houses.

In both of these charts, the middle horizontal line is the horizon, the middle vertical line is the south meridian, the vertical lines on either side of it are the prime vertical passing through the east and west points, and the far edges are the north meridian. The 12 houses are marked by the green dotted lines (and labeled with green numbers), while the ecliptic and the signs of the zodiac are marked by purple dotted lines (and labeled with purple glyphs). Planets are plotted near the ecliptic, and the Ascendant, MC, and house cusps are plotted where they intersect the ecliptic.

Notice how the star Sirius (labeled "Sir") is clearly in the 5th house below the horizon, however with a zodiac position slightly later than the Descendant, all ordinary 2D house systems will place it in the 7th house, making one think it's above the horizon! Similarly, the star Polaris (labeled "Pol") is high in the sky on the meridian and therefore correctly on the 10th cusp, however 2D house systems will place it way down in the 6th house.
Image
Also, chart spheres can now display the astronomical constellations on the surface of the sphere. It can display over 1000 fixed stars at once, and stars are displayed according to their brightness. Star configurations are in expected places: For example, below you can see the Big Dipper at the top of Ursa Major (UMa), with its two forward stars forming a line pointing to Polaris the North Star on the meridian. In Orion you can see Orion's Belt of three stars, and in the upper right of Taurus the tight cluster of stars is the Pleiades. The very bright star in Canis Major (CMa) is Sirius, the brightest star in the sky.
Image
Astrolog 7.60 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm :)

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Image
The animation above (created using Astrolog 6.50) shows how Campanus house cusps change over time. A standard 2D wheel chart is compared side-by-side to a 3D "chart sphere", with both animating the same chart at the same times.

Campanus houses are defined by dividing the local horizon into 12 equal sized wedges (with the horizon as their "equator"). That's similar to how signs of the zodiac divide the celestial sphere into 12 equal sized wedges (with the ecliptic as their equator). Where the ecliptic intersects these houses defines the 12 Campanus cusps. That means Campanus houses are effectively a 3D version of Equal houses, because house sizes are equal from a 3D standpoint. (That's one argument in favor of Campanus being the "best" house system.) A 2D chart wheel is basically a 2D cross-section of the 3D chart sphere, taken on the plane of the ecliptic.

At high latitudes, Campanus can produce narrower houses (at least when looking at the 2D wheel). As can be seen on the 3D chart sphere, this happens at times when the ecliptic is nearly parallel to the horizon, which causes the ecliptic cross section to slice near the point on the horizon where all the houses meet, which means planets can enter and leave certain houses more quickly.

Notice how the Sun and Pluto are tightly conjunct on the wheel chart, however they're actually a bit farther away from each other in space on the celestial sphere, because their ecliptic latitudes differ.
Astrolog 7.60 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm :)

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It would be great if you could study a bunch of cases to find out whether Pluto is "inactive" or at least less powerful in its conjunctions when it's too far away in ecliptic latitude from the other planet/angle.

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srsedna wrote:It would be great if you could study a bunch of cases to find out whether Pluto is "inactive" or at least less powerful in its conjunctions when it's too far away in ecliptic latitude from the other planet/angle.
Yes, this would be interesting to investigate! :' Pluto moves slowly around its orbit, and therefore times when it's near or far from the ecliptic last for quite a few years, similar to the generational influences of Pluto in each sign.

Pluto most recently crossed the ecliptic in 2018, 1930, and 1770. That suggests the decade surrounding today, the decade surrounding the Great Depression, and the decade leading up to the American Revolution were/are especially strong with respect to Pluto energy. Pluto reached maximum ecliptic latitude (+/-17 degrees) in 1839 and 1980, which suggests those decades had minimal influence from Pluto aspects.
Astrolog 7.60 freeware downloads: http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm :)