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Ok I think I understand it now. One thing stands out though, this:
The Sun is in the Moon's fall so there is a measure of disappointment from him towards the relationship.
So on the one hand, his thinking/psychic/male self is super into me, and that is the predominant direction he's going in (towards me or staying with me).
But his virile side feels .. a measure of disappointment can we know how or in what way or about what? Does that mean sexually? is it like he imagines our relationship should be something else (what else?) and it's not? Or am I taking things too literally again? :wink:

Or is the point that we disregard that too since the Mercury placement is stronger? Would we always presume a planet in H1 in a rel'ship sort of gives the stronger testimony if the other planet (like here, the Sun) is in a bad house ilke H12?

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Polina wrote:The Sun is in the Moon's fall so there is a measure of disappointment from him towards the relationship. So on the one hand, his thinking/psychic/male self is super into me, and that is the predominant direction he's going in (towards me or staying with me).
There is no one single predominant direction. There are things going in different directions in your relationship. This is all shown by the receptions.

Also, the Moon is your emotions. So there is more meaning here. The configuration in your chart is very common in relationships. The man does not want to hear about the woman's emotions. That is displayed clearly by the Sun in the Moon's fall. That alone is a lesson on receptions. And I would bet money that this is happening to some degree in your case too. The chart shows it. The man is in his "cave"…: don't bother me with emotions.

How much of that he is able to hide the fact behind some explanation or by changing subject or how much you are aware of or not if something for you to observe. The Moon is disposited by the Sun, so whatever the Sun expresses in the relationship has a direct impact on your emotions. The Moon is peregrine so totally susceptible. So, nice Sun: nice for you, if the Sun is not nice you get the short end of the stick in whatever subject is at the forefront. Here: having a child.

His thinking part (mercury) is really into you. He likes you on a personality level. The Sun, his male part is in Venus's detriment. This can be read in different ways. The one that makes sense to me, given the context, is that his male side rejects and upsets Venus in at least one particular area of their relation. It does not necessarily mean that he is not into you sexually, although there is an impact on the quality and/or quantity of attraction.

So the Sun is not on Venus' or the Moon's side. The Sun will not help you, on the contrary. But Mercury will help you. So, if you want to get through to him you have to speak to his mind. Jupiter is Mercury's dispositor, that is: it has power over Mercury. That is a good but Jupiter is not strong so there is a learning curve for you to learn how to use that potential power. If you are too emotional he will close himself and, if he is skilled and you susceptible, will say whatever you need to hear to keep your emotional concerns, and Venus concerns at a safe distance. The obvious challenge is that men need to be more emotional and women more intellectual if we are to find a common ground of communication and understanding.
Polina wrote:But his virile side feels .. a measure of disappointment can we know how or in what way or about what? Does that mean sexually? is it like he imagines our relationship should be something else (what else?) and it's not? Or am I taking things too literally again? :wink:
You seem to be exploring the possibilities of the symbology. But the crux of the matter is that horary gives you some clarity and guidelines for thinking and action. It is up to you now to open the communication channels with you partner and sort things out. That is, bring up any fears to the surface and work through them. That means maturity, or maturing as a person and as a relationship. Honesty is needed.
Polina wrote:Or is the point that we disregard that too since the Mercury placement is stronger? Would we always presume a planet in H1 in a rel'ship sort of gives the stronger testimony if the other planet (like here, the Sun) is in a bad house like H12?
Take all testimonies as a whole. There's no one testimony stronger than the other in meaning. They all mean different things to form a picture complete enough of what you need to know in order to conduct yourself in life in regards to the matters you are investigating.

My answer is: no child as long as the Sun is stuck in the 12th. Mercury can act in your favor but the Sun will not. He is split. What to do? He can go on being split and you depending on his will forever and time will pass and you remain in the relationship as it is now with all the low ticket items being addressed. That is: part of him likes you, part of you likes him, part is the opposite, and both are somewhat disappointed with the relationship but enjoying what you can. Or you talk, face your desires, fears and justifications and shake things up and see what happens next.
--
Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net

15
Hi Felipe,
Wow thanks - hugely helpful. I can say that i already broached the issue of doing IVF with him, since after severe medical scarring done to me by Suckerberg Medical Center in San Francisco, that is now my only option. (i will be suing but thats another story and another horary)

I explained, first without emotion, then with (bc i could not help it) what my options are, why it is this way, and that I want his help and participation. I need an answer by Nov. 25th and he knows that.

What is odd is, I believe a past chart showed the opposite: that the "man" part of him (Sun) was very very into me but the mind part wasnt. Here we seem to have the reverse. That is odd, why did it change.

Also he seems to react more to emotions but his Modus Operandi for any request is: 1) say no. 2) take a long time (months) to think about it 3) suggest we do exactly what I asked, as if it were his idea.
I'm not saying that will be the case here, but if he says "no" now, I'm hoping for it.
It is also odd and maybe doesnt relate to his own natal that he is a Water Sun (Pisces) so I would really expect emotion to touch him a lot more than this chart implies it does. In other words, if anything, I would expect him to react to my emotions and not a logical argument. I made the logical arguments this spring and they fell flat. Now there is new information medically speaking...and I shared that to the extent i could (given the limitations of his male mind to understand female reproduction and what it means to be standing before the risk of no children for the next 45 years of my life)...

I will try when I bring it up again this week to use more rational arguments then, if that should help.

Also - when will the Sun leave the 12th? Can timing this give us an answer or is it only symbolic? Because as I stated last year, when the apartment sells is when he is free and THAT is when things will move.

I will post the apartment horary in case that gives us insights, it might have the final answer there.
The link is here in case any real estate buffs want a look. To me these charts are difficult for some reason.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 798#104798
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 798#104798


Thanks again. I am still as ever digesting all this...

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Polina wrote:Also he seems to react more to emotions but his Modus Operandi for any request is: 1) say no. 2) take a long time (months) to think about it 3) suggest we do exactly what I asked, as if it were his idea. I'm not saying that will be the case here, but if he says "no" now, I'm hoping for it.
It is also odd and maybe doesnt relate to his own natal that he is a Water Sun (Pisces) so I would really expect emotion to touch him a lot more than this chart implies it does.


The chart does not imply that he does not react to emotions. He does react alright! I said he does not like it.

The suggestion to speak to his mind or minimize over-emotional expression is to bypass that obstacle of his rejection of your emotions.
Polina wrote:In other words, if anything, I would expect him to react to my emotions and not a logical argument.


He reacts to both, like all humans. He has a degree of rejection/resistance to your emotions, which is widely know to the study of psychology. If we give people what they don't like the result is obvious. But you cannot and should not simply turn off your emotions, so ideally he has to learn to accept them, take them into consideration, and all that that implies.
Polina wrote:Also - when will the Sun leave the 12th? Can timing this give us an answer or is it only symbolic?


The Sun it is in a fixed sign so it won't be easy or quick. That is the message for now. No timing, as far as I am concerned. You may count the degrees to the end of Scorpio and apply a timing technique of your choice if you like. Personally, I would not do that because it may cause anxiety rather than help. But that's me.[/quote]
Polina wrote:Because as I stated last year, when the apartment sells is when he is free and THAT is when things will move.


True freedom is freedom from fear. That needs to be worked on in addition to trying to sell the apartment. Fear finds reasons to say "no". It's its specialty.

Maybe selling the apartment is the game changer. We can hope it will be. But the Sun in the 12th is about more than that. It is about a limiting, often fearful, state of mind.
--
Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net

17
Thanks again Felipe. Ok I wont do timing in this one then.

One question about significators, as I keep thinking about this:
If ASC + 5H are not ruled by Jupiter, and L1/L5 do not aspect each other in a chart, then can Jupiter aspecting L1 or Jup aspecting Venus give a "yes" for a future child? Or if the main signifs do not aspect, then it's automatically a "no"?

This struck a chord with me:
True freedom is freedom from fear. That needs to be worked on in addition to trying to sell the apartment. Fear finds reasons to say "no". It's its specialty.

Maybe selling the apartment is the game changer. We can hope it will be. But the Sun in the 12th is about more than that. It is about a limiting, often fearful, state of mind.
I'm going to talk to him this week of course, matter-of-factly. I'm creating a list of what his possible fears could be, so I can try to assuage them. (so far: loss of finances & loss of freedom, neither of which will be a reality here for him). It may or may not work to assuage his fears but i'll try. He tends to process things glacially slowly, I hope he WILL process them over time. I can try, that's all I can do. And I've forme ad backup plan anyway because if I can't count on him, I need to move forward anyway.

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Polina wrote:One question about significators, as I keep thinking about this:
If ASC + 5H are not ruled by Jupiter, and L1/L5 do not aspect each other in a chart, then can Jupiter aspecting L1 or Jup aspecting Venus give a "yes" for a future child? Or if the main signifs do not aspect, then it's automatically a "no"?
The way I approach horary, house rulers always take precedence over natural rulers. So I would want to see an L1-L5 aspect or a Moon-L5 aspect with supporting receptions and no major afflictions. And, of course, measure all testimonies against the forces at play in the context. I have never seen a chart about this with a Venus aspect, so I stick to the main significator (L1) and the main co-sig (Moon).
Polina wrote:It may or may not work to assuage his fears but i'll try. He tends to process things glacially slowly, I hope he WILL process them over time. I can try, that's all I can do. And I've forme ad backup plan anyway because if I can't count on him, I need to move forward anyway.
Sounds like a good plan.

Best wishes,
--
Felipe Oliveira
http://traditionalmedicalastrology.org
http://medicalastrologer.net

19
house rulers always take precedence over natural rulers. So I would want to see an L1-L5 aspect or a Moon-L5 aspect with supporting receptions and no major afflictions. And, of course, measure all testimonies against the forces at play in the context. I have never seen a chart about this with a Venus aspect, so I stick to the main significator (L1) and the main co-sig (Moon).
Thanks - this is a new part of the "Rules" for me, so it's super helpful to have it in black and white per se.

I spilled the beans to my boyfriend and said my matter-of-fact speeches last night. I was so nervous, i was shaking. But I told him how important this is to me, that I'm willing to carry 100% of the financial burden for the child and that if he doesn't participate I have to go forward for myself in any case. As our only option is IVF, that means i would have to buy donor materials. I dont want him to feel pressured so I said I have this option, but at the same time, in his shoes, I would not imagine wanting to continue living with me (his girlfriend) if I had a child by a donor, and that I'd understand that. He started asking questions about the process and said he's thinking about it. He had a lot of pessimistic replies "where will they go to school/all the schools here are horrible" "how will they get a job/the economy is bad". I said you and 20 million other people grew up here, graduated and found jobs, and this child will be no different... I said you're worried about things that are not problems, or not problems yet, plus I will handle it. You just need to know if you want to participate or not, knowing i've removed the financial burden and that this isnt some attempt to sit on your shoulders and pull money frmo your pockets. The ball as they say is in his court.

I ran a chart right after the talk to see if my attempts to persaude him would help in his decision to help me -- ie WILL he help me and participate in this attempt to have a child together or not? The chart is below. I presume it is not good news with all our significators in my 6th house (his 12th). But I'm not sure what to make of it -- he, me and the potential child are all ill/diseased? He is hiding from something?? I always have trouble with the 6th and 12th interpretations. Some say 6th is disease and that would mean this is not good for any of the 3 parties... The only good thing i see is we're all in the same sign/same house and there are aspects between child and him and me and child.
But each party (except for me - in Term of Jupiter) is in its own Term. But the Uranus aspect (Moon touches merc, then Merc touches Uranus, then Merc reaches him/Saturn) --does this mean loss?? does it stop the process of the aspects or does it not count as a modern planet? what is it saying?

Sun totally peregrine near end of sign - he cant act as a "man" (?) plus in his 12th...ehhh :?
Coruler for him Pluto sextiles Venus but probably doesn't count for much?

I ask because there is a huge expense involved if i pay to ship donor materials and he changes his mind. I need to make the purchase this week so would like to know whether I should buy or not... Anyway I'm interested in any input on this 6th house saga going on...


Image
https://imgur.com/a/AlJ0L