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Two Planets Perfecting in the Next Sign

 
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
Posts: 201

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject: Two Planets Perfecting in the Next Sign Reply with quote

Hello Forum,

I have my chart of own for the question " Will I be able to go to London by new year" where I am the Sun, L1 and London is Saturn ( Aqu), L7 which led to ask me about King's Combination.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9905

I thought I wld. Be able to go to London after some changes of circumtances and I was thinking of how it would fold itself out in life i.e. Cazimi in its domicile Saturn and then Sun burning Saturn, London - what this cld. Mean.

Now that in another forum, I have been informed that both planets changing signs and perfecting in the next sign is a no, because it is prohibition.

I do not understand the reason as to why perfecting matters in the next sign is prohibition. And if it is a prohibition how shd. I predict conjuction in the next sign. I mean the conjuction is there, but matter will not perfect beacuse of what.

Thanking in advance.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't looked at the chart, but some horary astrologers, such as Anthony Louis, believe if a planet perfects an aspect out of sign that it suggests the event will occur with a needed change (change in location, job, etc.) but I have also seen it mean the event will occur outside of the time asked about. For example, if someone asks if they will marry within the next 5 years and the chart shows an aspect between L1 and L7 but out of sign, then it will still happen but perhaps out of the time asked about or if the querent moves, etc. I believe I have seen Lilly regard an aspect of the Moon outside of sign as relevant and that the Moon is not void (I don't have a source handy).
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so much Tanit. Now, I have got the chart for perfecting matters in the next sign in Anthony Louis' Horary Book. It is chart 17 for the question "Will I marry" ? For interested members.

Here is my chart for "Will I be able to go to London by new year?" The back ground for the question is that I love London so much and I have not been there more than 10 years. I just felt the urge to ask the question when I saw someone's post in fb saying she was flying to there. I dreamed myself drinking my margaritha in Soho Smile

Answer to question is no, I won't go to London. Sun and Saturn does not perfect in Sag., and also Sun is sitting on Antares where things do not start. And SN in the 7th. it is good that I am not going for some unknown reason.

But what I understand is that I will go to London just after new year's day. Yes, but what happens than. What is the meaning of my making London cazimi and then London being in its pure and harsh energy (saturn after cazimi). I can not translate this configurations into mundane life.

And what about King's Combination.

I wld. Be so happy to have your help.

Thanks in advance.

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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Brezze,

Why are you saying London is L7?

London is L9, for you. It is a special journey. It is a foreign country.

The Sun is in Jupiter's sign showing you want Jupiter.

Notice the Sun on the star Antares showing things will not unfold for the Sun.

The Moon is in close opposition to Jupiter showing your connection and the prompting to ask the question.

The Moon is VoC.

The answer, I'm afraid, is not favorable. No applying aspect, no event.

The fact that the Moon is on the North Node by antiscion right in house 1 hints at the fact that you are better off not going to London anyway.
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Felipe !

I shd. Got confused somewhere Confused I shd. Go back to threads with travel charts.

I have never been looking at moon or any planets if they conjuct SN/NN by antiscion. I will be looking at this from now on. Thank you really for this ! And what wld. You say about moon or any planet- especially if this planet signifies the matter asked- when they partile sextile with SN and partile trine NN or vice versa ?

What if we replace London question with " Shd. I leave my job"?

Wld. That be a new job which looked so brilliant, so charming at the first place, full of opportunities ( cazimi Saturn ) and then becoming harmfull for me , may be so tiring may be causing depression ? But sun burns saturn Confused

And if it was a relationship chart, begining of the relationship wld. Be perfect, but then he wld. be overwhelmed by my love towards him. In his own domicle and in his pure form Saturn man wld. Do what Confused

All month thinking about this Sun and Saturn combination, and plus King's combination, I can not go anywhere on my own crying
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breeze wrote:
Now, I have got the chart for perfecting matters in the next sign in Anthony Louis' Horary Book. It is chart 17 for the question "Will I marry" ? For interested members.

Hello Breeze,

would you mind to give the data of Anthony Louis' example chart 17 and its result?

Thanks in advance!

Perhaps you could give an explanation, why or for what reason you plan to go to London?
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 225

Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Breeze,

Comments below:

Breeze wrote:
I have never been looking at moon or any planets if they conjuct SN/NN by antiscion. I will be looking at this from now on.


Here that is not a major testimony. The major testimony is the lack of applying aspects between L1 and L9 or the Moon and L9. But antiscion is a major technical point. Always look at the antiscion of all planets. Many horaries are answered by antiscial positions alone.

Breeze wrote:
You say about moon or any planet- especially if this planet signifies the matter asked- when they partile sextile with SN and partile trine NN or vice versa ?


I only look at conjunction (bodily or by antiscion) with SN and NN, no other aspects.

Breeze wrote:
What if we replace London question with " Shd. I leave my job"?


For questions of the type "should I stay or should I go?" or "should I change?" we judge L1 and L7 and their respective houses. It does not matter if the thing that is changing is a job, house, country, or partner. The essence of the question is "change", so :L1-L7.

Breeze wrote:
Wld. That be a new job which looked so brilliant, so charming at the first place, full of opportunities ( cazimi Saturn ) and then becoming harmfull for me , may be so tiring may be causing depression ? But sun burns saturn Confused


Which chart are you talking about? Saturn is not Cazimi in this chart.
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Felipe for all the info .

felipeastrologo wrote:


Which chart are you talking about? Saturn is not Cazimi in this chart.


I am talking about the "Will I go to London by new year?" chart above.

For the sake of study if we replace the question with " Shd.I change my job" or "Will I have relation with him?" , how wld. We read the Sun and Saturn conjuction which wld. Be taking place in the next sign which is Capricorn.

I understand that circumtances will change before the matter perfect. Once they change signs, Saturn will be cazimi in its own domicile. After cazimi , Saturn ( cold and harsh planet) will be in its pure energy, but will be under sunbeams. So, how wld. sun and saturn will react alone ? How wld. they relate to each other one in an event ( job change) and in one to one relations ? How shd. I translate their language in daily life ? These are what I wanna understand.

Personally, I find Saturn quite strange i.e. At what configurations Saturn is a trouble or a help ? So aggressive, so harsh. In its domicile, Saturn shd. Feel more relaxed, less malefic depending on the context. Yes, but ... Saturn being cazimi and then staying under sunbeams, cazimi/ under sunbeam Saturn becomes more intresting for me.

The base of my curiosity is based on King's Combination which I mention in my initial post. I do not know if we cld. include King's Combination in traditional readings tough.

Hope I have put in a more clear way.
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felipeastrologo



Joined: 02 Apr 2015
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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, ok.

Tecnically and generally speaking; three points:

1)
Suppose we wanted to have the Sun conjoin Saturn in this chart. Mercury is a prohibition, it aspects Saturn first. Then Mars. There is no viable Sun-Saturn aspect in this chart.

2)
A planet is either cazimi or it isn't. We do not judge future cazimi. Do not look at future or past cazimi, that is not correct technique. Before a planet can be cazimi it is harmed by combustion anyway, which we do judge in terms of future and past harm.

3)
Aspects very early in the next sign (within the first or second degree, in my experience) work favorably in certain charts where a change in circumstance or timeframe is part of the original context. Rare.
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Breeze



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Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks so muchh Felipe for your all time and info you provided. I have noted all.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I understand that circumtances will change before the matter perfect. Once they change signs, Saturn will be cazimi in its own domicile. After cazimi , Saturn ( cold and harsh planet) will be in its pure energy, but will be under sunbeams. So, how wld. sun and saturn will react alone ? How wld. they relate to each other one in an event ( job change) and in one to one relations ? How shd. I translate their language in daily life ? These are what I wanna understand.
Personally, I find Saturn quite strange i.e. At what configurations Saturn is a trouble or a help ? So aggressive, so harsh. In its domicile, Saturn shd. Feel more relaxed, less malefic depending on the context. Yes, but ... Saturn being cazimi and then staying under sunbeams, cazimi/ under sunbeam Saturn becomes more intresting for me.


As was already mentioned, a planet must be currently cazimi to be considered in that aspect. It is a rare time period that doesn't last very long and is kind of controversial regarding whether it is positive or not.

The malefics, Saturn, the greater, Mars, the lesser, are by nature difficult. When they are positive, they still bring good things only with conditions. When at their best, they bring more good than bad, but they usually do still bring some difficulty. When bad, they bring more bad than good (if any good). Saturn might bring good things through such things as time, hard work, waiting, and dedication, for example. Mars might bring good things through drive, determination, ambition, competition, etc. It is harder to get something good when they are involved. Anytime I see a thing asked about represented as a malefic, I immediately try to dissect the chart to question whether the thing is worth the extra effort or not. A thing represented as a benefic, Venus, the lesser, and Jupiter, the greater, is by nature the opposite - more easy to gain and has mostly positive influences (usually). This is likely why some people have easier or harder lives than others - when looking at their charts, we can see where these planets play a role in the ease or difficulty of their lives, for the most part. (some people with dignified malefics, such as my own Mars, also feel like the challenge is sometimes worth it and adds to the satisfaction of an end result)

Most people would say combustion completely debilitates a planet, and renders it powerless or makes it hidden from view (such as a lost item or thief that is good at hiding).

Regarding the general nature of Saturn conjunct Sun, the slower planets less often are conjunct the Sun, so when that occurs it might be considered more significant than usual (a short period once per year, basically). Saturn is a cold, dark and dry planet that doesn't allow life, whereas the Sun is hot an gives life and light. Saturn moves slowly through the signs in comparison to the Sun. The Sun is open and expressive and truth-giving/seeking, whereas Saturn is constrictive, hidden and withdrawn. They are at odds with one another in nature. Depending on the situation, and which planet is the querent versus thing asked about, as well as the reception and dignity involved, it can represent many things. Whenever I see it in a person's birth chart, I often think of how their personality and energy is repressed or controlled. There is a censoring effect done to the Sun by Saturn and these people have often been disappointed by something that has altered them to make them this way. These sorts of people can come across as uptight or shy in some cases, for example. In a more broad way of looking at the aspect, this still applies in some respects. Were I to look at a chart related to travel and I the Sun, the thing Saturn, I would think the travel might involve me as someone who has energy and is eager for new things, but I am hit by a brick wall that restricts my plans and makes me realize the trip was not realistic, or the trip was compromised in some way that takes the fun out of it. Were it the opposite scenario, it might involve someone who is reserved and quiet who finds a travel venture was a bad idea because it was too loud, fast-paced and crowded, or that their well placed plans were not followed and it ruined their "fun." This is just an example and I am speaking broadly, since I have not looked at the chart.

I remember a romance chart someone posted several years back where the querent was Sun and Saturn quesited in a conjunction, and Saturn acted as though the Sun was loud and in their face whereas they were shy and reserved. The woman (Sun) made the first move. Saturn reciprocated but it was definitely an opposites attract sort of thing (and I am unsure how it played out, although I am sure it would have taken a lot of work).
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Breeze



Joined: 16 Oct 2016
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So happy to see you Tanit. Your post is a great help, thanks so muchhh really

I was trying to see if we cld. Apply the King's Combination for recent Sun-Saturn conjunction, but I am now clear that we can not predict combustion after cazimi.

The example about travel is beautiful. It is really a help for me to understand how Sun-Saturn relates.

Thanks again
Cheers
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Breeze



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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Felipe,

Finally, I found the thread as to why I related "London" to 7th. House. I know it took some time Smile

Here is the link for any interested parties:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5096&highlight=

And Mercury is being prohibition in that chart, I am still thinking about it. i.e I see mercury as frustration, some delays ?, and Sun perfects with Saturn in the next sign


Deb wrote:
Hi Paul
The 9th house indicates long journeys into remote places, so this probably does need some explanation.

The 9th house is a cadent house which is descriptive of �alien� (ie., unfamiliar) environments, but the 7th house also has a strongly developed tradition of signifying the place where we move to or journey to. Hence, in a question about a journey, the 7th afflicted could show trouble in the destination, or the significator retrograde could show that the destination is never reached because of a problem in the journey (I am writing this in a place where I don�t have my books, so I can�t give references, but you can check in the shipping examples and 9th house section of Lilly, or Bonatti, etc) This is the reason why, when people ask about moving house, we use the 7th house to show the place where they would move � its nothing to do with this house being the 4th from the 4th as some modern authors explain it.

I wouldn�t argue that the 9th house can�t be used, but I personally think the 7th is best for a simple �should we go to here?�-type question. There is an interesting example in the third house section of Christian Astrology, where Lilly talks about an absent brother and says that if his significator is in the 7th house, then the brother is in the foreign country that he journeyed to; but if it is in the 9th, then he has gone on from that to somewhere remote from that place, like a monastery. I think that gives a good sense of how the 7th signifies the place we go to, whilst the 9th house is still used for those far away places.

Deb

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Breeze



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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Johannes,

Sorry for not coming back to you any earlier. Your post was totally put of my sight.

She got married after couple of years , she asked the question Smile After some changes in her circumtances !

And my reasons for going to London - I just love being in London, just for pleasure ! More in my initial post, but the main reason is that.



johannes susato wrote:
Breeze wrote:
Now, I have got the chart for perfecting matters in the next sign in Anthony Louis' Horary Book. It is chart 17 for the question "Will I marry" ? For interested members.

Hello Breeze,

would you mind to give the data of Anthony Louis' example chart 17 and its result?

Thanks in advance!

Perhaps you could give an explanation, why or for what reason you plan to go to London?

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