13
Waybread wrote:
Incidentally, does anyone know why Mark Riley never officially published his translation?
It's very sad that of August 2013 David Roell had almost completed the complex preparation for the publication of the Riley translation including charts, critical notes and tables. Dave was a talented publisher and had already given us many fine texts, most notably his two volume edition of Lilly. Beautifully done, a work of art. Dave wasn't just a publisher. He was an artist at his work. The Riley translation would have been a gift to astrologers.

I wish someone could find a way to discover what has happened to Dave's publishing efforts, and if someone could put the finishing touches on the manuscript he had been working on. I tried to contact his wife, but there was no reply. Is there a way to contact Riley? He must have been in touch with Dave?

One aspect of the Gehrz publication I liked was her explanation of Greek terms in footnotes. I don't know if she continued this through later volumes. I have been finding it very interesting and helpful to read her translation along with Schmidt's.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

15
Thanks, Waybread. I see that there is an email address on the link you sent, but I haven't tried it yet.

Zagata wrote:
I would be interested to know how Gehrz has dealt with the tables in Book VIII.
They are used for a favourite topic of mine, namely calculating the length of life. To my knowledge, no translator has ever published the complete tables - not just those given by Valens - but for other latitudes as well.
I haven't reached Book 8 yet in reading, but Gehrz has 24 pages of tables, two for each sign with these headings:

Degrees (1 through 30)
(Planet glyphs for sections)
Numbers
And (?)
Years
Months

Book 8 is one of her least expensive volumes if you are curious enough to buy it, about $10 USD. For the time being Book 8 is all Greek to me. I do have to say that leaving the interpretation questions aside, Gehrz's unusual method of presentation with multiple casual sketches makes the study of Valens pleasant. The photos of Gehrz and her editor look like Hollywood photos shoots. Is she thumbing her nose at academics? (Which doesn't mean that the majority of her translation isn't valuable.)

It's difficult to read Riley on-line, and the text layout in the Schmidt translations is dense enough so that it's necessary to stop and think after many sentences, and even take notes....which is why I had difficulty getting past the first few volumes.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

16
I printed out Riley's on-line version for easier access. He is an authority on Valens and Ptolemy so I hope there's some chance of this coming out as a publication with some footnotes.

17
Therese Hamilton wrote: Is there a way to contact Riley? He must have been in touch with Dave?
I actually recently emailed Mark Riley about something and he was really prompt in coming back to me, which is really incredibly kind of him, so you possibly have a chance of reaching out to him and seeing if there's any more information on this or if he knows any more about it.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/

18
A note on translations:

Today I found some time to carefully compare passages in Volume 7 between Schmidt and Gehrz. There is no doubt that Schmidt's translation is vastly superior and also includes copious notes and references. I think Andrea Gherz may have started out fairly well with the first book or two which contained basic concepts. But in Book 7 she seems to have lost her way. In many places she doesn't seem able to skillfully translate the Greek in order to form sentences with cohesive meanings. Perhaps in her inexperience she realized this and began placing a decimal (.1) after titles, indicating a first try at translation.

Anyway I can't thank my lucky stars enough to have purchased each Schmidt volume as it was published in the 1990s. (A mere $15 for each volume...) Book 7 was published in 2001; It's puzzling that Robert Schmidt hasn't finished the translation with Books 8 and 9. He has mentioned that these early translations were provisional, so perhaps he felt that he had to start all over again, and enough time and energy were never found for the work. But fortunately we have the Riley translation. I plan to email him soon to ask about Dave Roell's work on a hard copy.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

19
Hi Therese,

Thank you for your post. Even though Book VII by Valens is one of the most difficult/cryptic ones, there are many examples he presents, which allow the diligent student to somewhat read between the lines as to how the method is to be used. In addition, Schmidt's copious footnotes preface and synopsis are, as always, invaluable.

Contrary to this, in the chapters 29-30 in Book II, which I mentioned, there is no exemplified chart.

The point is, this is already Book VII by the same author, and thus one is supposed to find it easier to translate the author's writings. Based on what you say, the fact that Gehrz is having difficulty, even with the many examples given, is perhaps as you say due to her inexperience.

On the other hand, this should serve as a strong reminder about the vast differences, as well as the level of complexity, between the modern and ancient astrological branches, for if an experienced modern practitioner cannot translate Valens properly, what hope is there for those of her psychologically based readers to understand one of the most important astrological texts?
Ancient and Chinese Astrology:

https://www.100percentastrology.com/

20
Good points, Zagata.

I'm not sure whom you mean by "psychologically based readers." As you know, modern astrology includes modern psychological astrology, evolutionary astrology, past-lives astrology, &c &c; but a lot of modern astrologers are more restrained, pragmatic, and classical in orientation.

Further, "psychological astrology" increasingly seems to mean adherence to Carl Jung. But he is no longer taught in comprehensive university psychology departments in the US and Canada, except in historical perspective. North American academic psychology today is more clinically based, and moving ever closer to neuroscience.

This leaves Jung to be taught in specialized institutes, or in other kinds of academic departments besides psychology. I really think Jung belongs with the humanities disciplines, not with the social and behavioural sciences.

Due to an interest in the history of ancient astrology, I've read the Riley translation several times, but I would never call myself a "psychological astrologer."

21
Here is an example of what I mean when I say that Gehrz seems to have trouble comprehending concepts:

Schmidt VII.19, p. 63 (The Anthology, Book VII)
"In the 48th year there was gravest sorrow, as the native beheld the death of an affectionate child, and in the same year also the death of the mother. The Virgin and the Balance were signifying, then, because they have equal ascensions--8 years from the Balance, 40 from the Virgin;" (Schmidt includes a half page of notes with this chart.)

Gehrz VII (Vettius Valens of Antioch, 7.1) (No page numbers or chart identification number!)
"In the 48th year there was great depression and grief accompanied by the tender affection of a child. There was also a wondrous contemplation of death between the mother and herself. This was significant. Virgo and Libra are of the same ascensional time, Libra year 8, Virgo 40..."

Visually Gherz's layout is more pleasing (but certainly doesn't make up for the decimation of concepts). It's easier to quickly grasp the planetary placements as her hand drawn charts are circular, and she uses modern terminology neatly laid out in a column beside the charts:

Sun, Mercury in Capricorn
Moon, Saturn in Sagittarius
Jupiter in Cancer
etc.

Schmidt makes us think a little as the planetary placements are in condensed paragraph form in Hellenistic terminology: Sun, Hermes in the Goat-Horned One; Moon, Kronos in the Archer; Zeus in the Crab;....and so on. But this allows the reader to have a sense of the Hellenistic aura (for lack of a better word).

It would be interesting if someone could add the Riley translation here for a three way comparison. My computer of a certain age doesn't handle long pdfs well, and I couldn't get a Riley printout in a readable font.
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm

22
Therese

Riley p.133
In his 48th year he saw the death of his beloved son, a very great sorrow, and in the same year the death of his mother. Virgo and Libra indicated this because of their equal rising times <40>: 8 years for Libra <Venus> plus 40 for Virgo total 48
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" - Socrates

https://heavenlysphere.com/