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dean b and mari,

there are 11 charts for france in nic campions book on world horoscopes.. some people will argue for one more then another, but there is value in all of them up to a point.. without going into this too deeply, i encourage you to get a copy of nic campions book if you are really interested in mundane astrology... i know marjorie orr was using the chart that i reference above and obviously there are some clear connections to this chart based on an examination of the ingress charts back to it as well.. as to which chart to use - again - it is up to the astrologer to make a decision on that hopefully based on years of observation on which chart seems to resonate best to the country under consideration..

modwaspmk2..

that is only a small part of it as i understand it... one could make a sweeping generalization about how neo-liberalism is at the root of much of the malaise in the western world too, as is evidenced by these protests in france... either way - none of this is astrological and best to share in some other forum then an astrological one..

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Thank you for your reply, James M.

one could make a sweeping generalization about how neo-liberalism is at the root of much of the malaise in the western world too, as is evidenced by these protests in france


The point I'm making isn't about politics, per se; It's about the underlining influence of Pluto in Capricorn and the globalist agenda. This is clearly being played out by Macron.


either way - none of this is astrological and best to share in some other forum then an astrological one..

It's everything to do with the astrological; What we are witnessing is Pluto's influence on society according the the Grand Cross of April 21st, 2014. Almost every single political or cultural event or movement, in my opinion, can be interpreted by that chart.

This topic is, rather shamelessly, just another brazen attempt to distract people from what is really going on in the world.

And if that isn't plutonic, what is?

(sorry, might be on the wrong tread)

Cheers,
MWmk2

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Hi, James!

Of course, I know for the Campion's book and for a dozen of charts. Besides, the extensive use of many charts is the specificity of the mundane astrology (even if because unlike human beings nations or states are never born once and up to the death, but undergo important transformations, implying the change of political regimes, borders, etc.).
Now the trick is how one uses any of theses charts. Resonating is not the question there, they all do at a certain extent. If I take once again the natal astrology as a parallel: there is my natal chart, the chart of my marriage and several other major events (that transformed my life and brought into it things that still condition my life), even my spouse's chart, etc. And they all resonate and they are all telling (and sometimes very useful to check a specific point or get a confirmation of a judgement done with the another chart, etc).
The thing is to take each of them for what it is to avoid any misjudgement and to take from it what we can take from it.

That's even more important in the mundane astrology when one deals with the whole many charts.

So my remark was only about the right placement of 1792 in accordance to the meaning of the 1792 event both in the history of France and in the history of the Great Revolution.

Now sure, it's up to you to use whatever chart you want in whatever context you want. :roll:

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For some reason I have not been notified of the additions to this thread. I will get back to it soon
To be precise: the rioting began on Nov 17
Thanks. The riots have not been covered well by the main stream media in the US. In fact they were ignored for several weeks. I picked the wrong date because it was the earliest reference I found in US outlets.

I'll get back to it - today I hope. Thanks for the correction

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modwaspmk2

why don't you post a separate thread on the grand cross of april 2014? i am curious to hear what you have to say about it... thanks..

mari

i believe that nic campion was a result of his time... mundane astrology prior to the reintroduction of the older texts translated by project hindsight and etc - involved charts for countries which typically had a number of important dates to consider... one can say they all have some relevance and bearing..

the charts that tom posted are a reflection of how astrology was done previously to the 20th century up until sometime into the 1990's... i haven't commented on the charts tom posted, but i believe they have a lot of merit too.. the problem with them is the charts for france, uk, germany and a number of other countries along a similar longitude line have much in common.. when you are using one of them to reference france for example, you are also picking up very similar influences on a country like norway for example... it makes the use of aries ingress charts problematic as i see it..

with regard to the aries ingress 2018 chart to paris that tom posted.. it is a mutable sign rising.. when this happens, one is supposed to look at all the ingress charts for the year.. only when the chart has a fixed sign rising, does this not apply.. therefore the chart that dean first posted to initiate this thread has a lot of merit on it's own as a stand alone chart.. i only shared my views via the connection to the sept 1792 chart which i thought were especially poignant... anyone is welcome and free to post a chart that they feel has relevance and comment on it...

i would really like to see these other charts that people want to talk about! perhaps there is some difficulty posting charts whereby others are unable to do this? i am curious...

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The methods I referred to are those of Jean Baptiste Morin deVillefranche (1583-1656) as taught in his text Astrologia Gallica published posthumously in 1661. He did not always follow other traditional astrologers. Most mundane astrology prior to 17th century France comes from medieval "Arab" astrologers. An excellent source for those methods is anything written and/or translated by Ben Dykes that covers this topic.

Like all other branches of astrology, there is no one set way to do it. I stick with Morinus for two reasons: 1) he makes a great deal of sense to me, and 2) it isn't possible to follow all, most, or even several of them without getting muddled.

Very roughly speaking prior to the arbitrarily chosen year of 1951, the Aries Ingress was used for mundane prediction. However a large number of European astrologers, using the 1939 Aries Ingress, predicted "No War." Well, that didn't turn out too well. In 1951, C.E.O. Carter published a wildly influential little book titled "Introduction to Political Astrology" wherein he blamed the technique of the Aries Ingress for the astrologer's failure in 1939, and recommended national charts and the use of planetary cycles for mundane prediction. Those are the most popular methods today for broad prediction. I can't say they are any more accurate than the missed WWII predictions - look at the US Presidential election for 2016 for example. That looked like a replay of the 1939 European predictions, and possibly for the same reasons.

This is not to say Carter was 100% wrong and his recommended methods have no value. To say that might be worse than getting the predictions wrong. I will say I'm not persuaded they are an improvement, but that's me. Ironically Morin addressed these issues in mid 17th century. He said that national charts would be great if we could determine with certainty when a nation began. And all we have to do is look at the number of charts proposed for the USA as an example of how that works out.

He also argued that the Saturn-Jupiter conjunctions would be wonderful, too, if they could be calculated accurately. They couldn't in his day, but they can be now. He pooh poohed the use of mean conjunctions as recommended by Abu Mashar in the 8th century. Whether or not he is correct is a different topic. I'm only laying out some history in an effort to put things into perspective.

There is usually more than one way to the truth so all methods that work reasonably well and better are fine. There probably isn't just one good method. What I like to see, and what I like isn't way up there on the importance list, is that people use the methods they prefer, and just tell us what they're doing and why and how that applies to their predictions and understandings. We all benefit that way.

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involved charts for countries which typically had a number of important dates to consider...
I actually stand pretty much on the same grounds :) It's just I thought that I could bring some additional expertise as to the potential of some charts (=dates/events), well, like I'm a French national knowing the French history a bit deeper than would be expected from a foreigner (which is really natural, I bet you understand the history of your country better than I do). No offence meant :)
i only shared my views via the connection to the sept 1792 chart which i thought were especially poignant...
And BTW I found that you got smth interesting here (my commentary on the Tuilerie palace/gardens in 1792/ Nov 2018).
Thanks.
That's what I thought: that since you are considering lunations, you might be interested in a more accurate chronology. I'm glad it was useful. If you ever want any further information, you're always welcome, Tom.

P.S. Well, yes, I think it's enriching to consider the same events with all the instruments we have in our possession and cross the findings. Anyway, I think that this extensive use of many methods and many charts and the way the process unfolds within different frames is quite essential to the mundane astrology.

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tom,

thanks for bringing up what i wanted to talk about in my last post, but didn't get round to... important conjunctions like jupiter and saturn could be taken into consideration too... i would include the saturn/pluto conjunction to this.. both of them happen in 2020 which is why i believe 2020 to be a ground zero year of importance...

i had thought to share how i would include these in relation to the aries ingress charts.. from my reading of dykes translated books, it is my understanding that one can consider the aries ingress charts, especially closer to the 2020 conjunction and put them together in some way... i have done this before, but haven't done this on this thread... i might try getting round to this, but as someone else - might have been tom - mentioned this - the difference between france and britian is not a lot in terms of the aries ingress charts..

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The New Moon chart of Nov 7 (that preceded the Nov 17 rioting in Paris) is even better.

Nov 7 2018
Paris France
5:01:56 PM CET - 1 hour

The sign on the Libra Ingress MC, Taurus, is now on the New Moon ASC in Paris. The rulers of this chart are Mars and Saturn. They each rule an angle and Saturn rules the following angle (the angle that follows in the order of the signs, the principle point, the point of the New Moon), and they are in a mixed mutual reception.

Morin is a bit sloppy in what follows and I'll explain after the quote:

The malefic planets dominating at the Primordial Point and badly disposed presage some evils. They will be more grave if the said planets occupy or govern the angles of the figure, and extremely grave if they are determined to evil by the places that they occupy or govern for example if they are in the 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th or 12th house.
In the Aries Ingress prior to WWII Neither Mars nor Saturn were "badly disposed" in that both had great dignity in Capricorn. What I'm thinking, if I might be allowed a bit of mind reading, is that the description above is a worst case scenario and even if Mars and Saturn are OK by position, but the rest of the conditions are met, things will still get bad. And to be fair we are now talking about rioting, not a world war. I'll still give him an "A" for prescience.

The New Moon itself at 15 Scorpio is conjunct the malefic South Scale AKA Zubenelgenubi. Robson:

.. malevolence, obstruction, an unforgiving character, violence disease ... crime ...
Not to mention that with the Sun:
Sickenss, loss of business and through fire ...
Yes this is hindsight astrology, but I think it is fair to say that with a cursory knowledge of contemporary French politics, an astrologer might predict difficulties to say the least, and if someone was really familiar with the situation in France, rioting would not be out of the question given the lunation's position on the south scale.

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i would include the saturn/pluto conjunction to this.. both of them happen in 2020 which is why i believe 2020 to be a ground zero year of importance...
The 2020 conjunction in December is the first conjunction in a series that occur in air signs. The May 2000 conjunction is the last in earth. This next is called a mutation conjunction and indicates a significant shift world wide. Keep in mind the events indicated by these conjunctions unfold slowly. Don't expect something big in December of that year.

I don't use Pluto much in natal astrology, but I think it has significant value in mundane astrology because it moves so slow.

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hi tom,

i recall from reading mashallah, or abu mashar on mundane astrology that the jupiter-saturn conjunction chart can be referenced with the aries ingress chart and you are right - it is a general overtone that doesn't relate specifically to a time like december as you note, but is more general in nature.. it is a 20 year cycle which has great bearing in a general sense...

i note the degree of the jupiter saturn conjunction at zero aquarius and how it connects to all these charts too, which others might want to consider... below is the 2020 jupiter-saturn conjunction set to paris, france.. note the transit

Image


here is the overlay of 2018 libra ingress with 2020 conjunction on outer wheel..

Image

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BTW, speaking of the 7 Nov New Moon (15°10' Sco). Do you know what I just spotted when looking at the 5th Rep chart? (can be any Sep/Oct 1958 chart). The previous eclipse was a partial lunar eclipse in May 1958 at 12°33' Sco.

Image


Also, Tau is on MC and Sco on IC (the king vs the people). Which is the Asc-Dsc axis of the New Moon (although the degrees themselves fall into 9/3, may be meaningful with the respect of the organisation and the role of social networks?).

And guess where was the lord of the eclipse? It was in Pisces (like now) and angular setting on the DSC.

Now the lord of the new moon (7 Nov) made its ingress into Pisces on 16 Nov 2018.
It transited the 1958 Mars on 24/11 when protesters first organised their event in Paris and surprised everyone by gathering on the Champs-Elysées (normally there are no protests allowed there, NEVER), also there were the first damages in Paris that night.