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Katy Strong wrote:
petosiris wrote:It is too obvious that the origin of all ''dignities'' is from the Northern Hemisphere temperate seasons. The argument that we should use them conveniently with an arbitrary frame of reference does not jive for me either, be it sidereal or common tropical.
Can you expound on this, please?
I've sent you a pm, but do you think that the exaltation of the Sun in Aries is unconnected to the spring equinox?

Suppose we argue that the constellation is the reason, as its Martial influence would make the Sun have greater heat.

But the reality is that the Sun's ingress into tropical ''Aries'' (and ''Libra'' in the south) causes the increase of daylight, and with it, heat, while the ingress of the Sun into sidereal Aries does nothing similar. I feel that to ignore the preceding in favour of the latter is unnatural. For an explanation of other dignities see - penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#17
Last edited by petosiris on Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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petosiris,

the link you provide in the above post takes me to bill thayer's web site... once there, it doesn't seem easy to find the info you mention in your post.. there is no search feature either... can you link directly to the page where thayer discusses this? thanks..

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james_m wrote:petosiris,

the link you provide in the above post takes me to bill thayer's web site... once there, it doesn't seem easy to find the info you mention in your post.. there is no search feature either... can you link directly to the page where thayer discusses this? thanks..
James, for some reason the link to the Tetrabiblos does not work here (since it leaves the last few letters out of the link), just copy-paste penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#17 in your browser.

(I am well aware that most other astrologers used a sidereal zodiac at that time, my point stands regardless of whether the equinox was thought within the sign rather than the beginning of it.)
Last edited by petosiris on Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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petosiris wrote:....do you think that the exaltation of the Sun in Aries is unconnected to the spring equinox?

Suppose we argue that the constellation is the reason, as its Martial influence would make the Sun have greater heat.

But the reality is that the Sun's ingress into tropical ''Aries'' (and ''Libra'' in the south) causes the increase of daylight, and with it, heat, while the ingress of the Sun into sidereal Aries does nothing similar. I feel that to ignore the preceding in favour of the latter is unnatural. For an explanation of other dignities see -
I was never taught the dignities in relation to seasonal changes... and I’m ok with that. They make good sense to me the way I was taught.

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thanks petosiris - it worked the 2nd time... fwiw, the way he outlines the exaltations is the way i have always thought of it... however, as katy notes - it is not how many others have internalized these ideas..

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petosiris wrote:...do you think that the exaltation of the Sun in Aries is unconnected to the spring equinox?

Suppose we argue that the constellation is the reason, as its Martial influence would make the Sun have greater heat.

But the reality is that the Sun's ingress into tropical ''Aries'' (and ''Libra'' in the south) causes the increase of daylight, and with it, heat, while the ingress of the Sun into sidereal Aries does nothing similar. I feel that to ignore the preceding in favour of the latter is unnatural. For an explanation of other dignities see - penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#17
I'm not wanting to reopen any debate on tropical vs sidereal but aren't you really cherry picking here?

I know your point is that to Ptolemy relates exaltation to the seasons and this explains the preeminence of the tropical zodiac and the example of the Sun in Aries fits the argument, but what about hot and dry Mars in cold Capricorn?

I quote from the webpage above, "Mars, which by nature is fiery and becomes all the more so in Capricorn because in it he is farthest south, naturally received Capricorn as his exaltation,...

The logic here is really flawed. How could a hot and dry planet become more so in a cold sign if the hot Sun is only enhanced by a hot and fiery sign like Aries?
Perhaps Capricorns coldness makes Mars a lukewarm influence by limiting Mars' power? This sounds more like a debilitation than an exaltation to me.

How is Mars' exaltation related to the seasons then? It's a reverse logic of the Sun in Aries.

Exaltation fails as verification of the tropical or sidereal zodiac.

My point is that there are anomalies in every argument that makes it almost impossible to explain with any consistency the "correct" zodiac from ancient sources. It's all point and counterpoint.

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How is Mars' exaltation related to the seasons then?
Ptolemy explains Jupiter's and Mars' exaltations with the tropical zodiac, when Mars is most southern, he is near the fiery south winds, and Jupiter in the north brings fertile northern winds. He explicitly says that Mars is more burning in Capricorn because of this placement.

But its possible that these placements were put there by the Babylonians, so maleficent planets coincide with the autumn and winter tropics, while beneficent planets with vernal and summer tropics, regardless of their heating and cooling power. It is still seasonal schematization. Or would you dispute that the Moon in Taurus with Sun in Aries was the Babylonian New Year?

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I wonder why Babylonians didn't choose Zi-ba-an-na (Libra) for the secret place (precursor to exaltation) for the Sun.
The Scales represented the sungod, Shamash in his role as God of Truth and Justice.
The Scales were sacred to him.
It was said that Shamash was the god that handed The Code of Laws to Hammurabi that were known as The Code of Hammurabi which was known for Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth,and Life for a Life. The serrated saw is a symbol of Shamash, and there are seals that show a god cutting off another's a transgressor's arm.

I can see why Zi-ba-an-na was chosen as a secret place for Saturn.
Saturn has been referred as Shamash. Saturn has been referred to as Star of the Sun or the Sun itself. The deity Ninurta has been associated with Saturn. He was a god associated with farming, healing, hunting, law, scribes, and war who was first worshipped in early Sumer. In the earliest records, he is a god of agriculture and healing, who releases humans from sickness and the power of demons. Ninurta recovered the Tablets of Destiny from the Anzu bird stolen them and returned them to his father, Enlil. The Tablets of Destiny had the power to turn back time.
Last edited by Raymond Scott on Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Back in Fall of 2015, I got and read Babylonian Star-lore by Gavin White which led me to get so interested in Mesopotamian Astrology that I converted from the Tropical Zodiac to Sidereal Zodiac.
I temporarily converted back in 2012 after reading Cyril Fagan's books, but I went back to Tropical Zodiac out of habit.
Gavin White opened my eyes.


I have Moon and Mars in Sidereal Aquarius. They are in the constellation, Aquarius. My Moon is conjunct alpha Aquarii Sadalmelek and theta Aquarii Ancha.
My Moon is conjunct gamma Aquarii Sadalbachia and Ancha in Right Ascension.
My Moon is in a 3D conjunction with Ancha. Even though My North Lunar Node is in Sidereal Capricorn, it is conjunct epsilon Aquarii star Albali.
I really don't like using projected ecliptic conjunctions. Bernadette Brady influenced me to have a preference for parans. Kenneth Bowser and Robert Hand has influenced me to use Right Ascension,Declination,and rotating Parans. However, David Cochrane has recently led me to change my mind to work with his method of rotating parans and not the methods that Starlight and Solar Fire uses.

The stuff that Gavin White wrote about Aquarius deeply resonated with me. That's something that Diana Rosenberg and Bernadette Brady failed to do with me when I read their histories of the Aquarius constellation.
Unlike them, Gavin pointed out that Aquarius was Gu-la 'The Great One' which represented Ea/Enki who was the God of Water,Wisdom,Magic,and the Arts. He was also a fertility god. He resided in the Apsu which is a watery region located between the Earth and the Netherworld. Capricorn was Sahur-Mas-ku 'The Goatfish.' Ea's symbol was the goat-fish. Both Gu-la and Sahur-Mas-ku were associated with him. Piscis Austrinus was Ku 'The Fish', and it was associated with Ea too. As-Gan ' The Field' was the other constellation associated with Ea.

In the Mul.Apin, Gu-la is identified as Ea.


I don't believe in using elements and ruling planets for the Sidereal Zodiac. The Babylonians didn't use them. That's all Hellenistic. I strongly disagree with what Western Sidereal Astrologers and Vedic Astrologers are doing. I don't want to use the Greek names for the zodiac signs like the Western Sidereal Astrologers.

I want to use the Mesopotamian names for the zodiac and interpret the zodiac signs based on the Mesopotamian star-lore which means that Gu-la (Aquarius) and Suhur-Mas-ku (Capricorn) would be water signs due to them being Ea/Enki and his symbol, the goat-fish. I'd see my Moon and Mars in Gu-la and North Lunar Node in Suhur-Mas-ku as watery placements with no connection to Uranus and Saturn. Mas-tab-ba-gal-gal (Gemini) would be Martian due to them being Twin Warriors that guard the Underworld ruled by Nergal which was the deity that was associated with Mars. Zi-ba-an-na (Libra) would be a strong and favorable placement for the Sun due to the fact that the scales is sacred to the Sungod, Shamash and that the sign represents him in his role as God of Truth and Justice. I view my Sun (especially), Mercury, and Venus in Zi-ba-an-na to have a solar-influence and not a Venusian influence.
Last edited by Raymond Scott on Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lu-hun-ga 'The Hired Man' (Aries) was associated with Inanna's husband Dumuzi who took her placed in the Underworld after she was killed and was resurrected 3 days afterwards.
She came back home and found Dumuzi to be only one in her household that was not in grief and was even sitting on her throne. She was angry and sent him to take her place in the Underworld.
Dumuzi spends half of the year in Underworld.
Dumuzi was a shepherd god.


The Babylonian Zodiac's 1st sign in the Zodiac was never Martian.
Mas-tab-ba-gal 'The Great Twins' was the only Babylonian Zodiac constellation/sign that was association with Nergal who was the deity that connection with Mars.

I don't think that there was any Babylonian Ram constellation.
Maybe there wasn't an existence of one until the Seleucid period after the Macedonian Greeks took control of Babylon.

Gary D. Thompson seems to have disagreements with Gavin White.
I actually like Thompson's site. There is a lot of useful information.
I notice that he has strong disagreements with Rumen Kolev who is a Pan-Babylonian.

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I'm just moving over to the Vedic approach of the Zodiac but holding onto the ideas I've learnt from the Western.

That just means that there are Sign changes on Cusps.

Doesn't it ?

H