Re: Athletic Event Prediction

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Rookie wrote:Hello All. Trying my hand at something different. I am trying to predict the outcome of an athletic event. Essentially my daughter is competing in her states track championships and I asked will XXX win the state meet.

As I am studing. I am learning it is basically a L1 vs L7 question. L1 is XXX since it is my daughter and L7 is the rest of the competition (the field).

So L1 is moon on the 12th cusp by 0.16 degrees and L7 is Saturn in the 7th, and retrograde.

First thought is that since L7 is in her on house the answer is Someone from the field wins. However, we are talking about a retrograde Saturn, so I would read it that allthough Saturn is in her own house, maybe her house is burning down and she can't compete.

Also, POF and North node is in the first house suggesting a favorable out come for XXX.

Comments?
Hi all,

First, my congratulations to Rookie and his daughter!!!

Second, it looks like this thread is over and Rookie might not see my reply (or … maybe our email notifications have been fixed and he might see it).

Third, however, after Tanit has confirmed that Rookie posted a horary chart (Placidus) I thought this was a wonderful opportunity for me to study and match the good outcome Rookie has supplied… I was thinking of my recent wild goose chase with Saturn in 7th house and here again, it’s Saturn – I don’t seem to learn, do I (those who are following Woo Woo’s appearance in horary section know what I mean).

I became quite inspired to convert Rookie’s Placidus chart into Regiomontanus. With some trial and error, I finally got it to work (see the chart below). 5th house now moved to 29 degrees, but Venus is still the ruler.

https://i.postimg.cc/5tmDftXk/Rookie-s- ... 1-2-LI.jpg
Image


Although Rookie has said he is trying to predict the outcome of an athletic event and using 1st vs 7th, he never mentioned his daughter’s team nor another team. His concern is focused on whether his daughter will win or not. Therefore, I agree with Tanit to take this as a 5th house matter.

His daughter is Venus in Aries placed in 10th house. She is accidentally dignified. Venus in Aries is not detriment in her case because she is an athlete who is competing in a big sporting event.

Her competitors are Mars (7th from 5th) in Gemini placed in 12th house. Accidental debility. Mars is termed by retrograde Saturn (conjunct SN) which doesn’t look promising.

10th house (Jupiter) is the award/title. I keep it in radical 10th because her glory was shared with many people (including her father). This sports competition was a state-wide event rather than involving radical 2nd (derived 10th from 5th) which is a small personal event.

Venus and Jupiter are going to have mutual application (they are in fire signs) whereas her competitor, Mars in Jupiter’s detriment, is separating from the award.

Therefore she is the state champion.[/img]
Last edited by Part of Fortune on Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hi PoF -

Thanks for sharing the Regio chart. What about Saturn prohibiting Venus from aspecting Jupiter, though? Venus is in detriment and even peregrine, which is not something to ignore. Moon is also very bad off. It does not fit a chart that clearly shows overcoming difficulty to win but this is not our chart and maybe the reader predicted correctly based on how they interpret astrology and the chart. Ultimately, a horary chart is made by an astrologer and is for them to read and interpret. We can tell them classical usage to try to be more consistent in our approach but there are other means of using divination. We don't know their interpretation of the chart, as you mentioned, unfortunately, and I don't think it is ever a good idea to leave a chart to be interpreted by others (it makes more sense to seek an astrologer to create their own chart). IMO, there is something inexplicable about the nature of an astrologer understanding and forming a horary to be read and the chart may be readable by others but it is a unique chart created for them. Maybe the event chart might have shown victory more clearly on a more empiric level, though.

I agree that Venus in the 10th can show a competitive female, which I stated previously, but even the dispositor is poor. All we can say is Venus is accidentally dignified but in most cases that is not enough to overcome affliction from Saturn, who is also accidentally and essentially dignified and a stronger planet and does not receive Venus. Saturn is a superior, Venus an inferior and it is said that the benefics can help control the malefics but that only Jupiter can take on the energy of Saturn to alleviate its difficulty, unlike Mars, whose energies can be mitigated by Venus or Jupiter (according to Bonatti). Even if retro, suggesting perhaps the square is somehow not fully capable of perfecting somehow (it can show a reversal, change of mind, etc.) that still does not mitigate the angularity and difficulty of Saturn (although SN decreases malefic abilities). Venus is also out of sect whereas Saturn is in sect. Overall, I just see a general theme of Saturn being important and a strong influence over Venus and it is coming from the radical 7th, a house of competition. I am going off of traditional ideas here, though. Maybe we could argue that the emphasis on retro planets of Saturn and Jupiter show some sort of reversal, such as gain after a tie, but it is an odd way to show it via a Saturn square.

The aspect also appears to be dexter, where Saturn is dominating Venus based on dexter versus sinister signification: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html#sd

One would assume difficulty (which was observed with a tie that was broken) but the question is, is this difficulty overcome on a logical level here?

It is said that traditionally Jupiter can be a mitigating force but when accidentally debilitated the ability for that to happen is again poor. If anything, one might attribute it to Saturn being retro, with SN and the possible mitigating force of Jupiter (and PoF in the 1st, although I would say 2nd, and again afflicted by Saturn). Venus seems to fit the competitor well but perhaps there is a different ruler that should have been used to represent the team, etc. Saturn in the 7th is a red flag to all of us that this chart is a bit problematic or that we are missing important information to help interpret it. Still, any victory chart for a horary should not have the Moon so poor. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me but maybe it shows worry by the querent? I personally agree with Deb that just because a question is asked does not mean the chart will align well with an outcome and the Considerations (such as Saturn in the 7th) are one thing to pay attention to. If I were a betting person with a chart like this, I honestly would have bet on the daughter to win because in my experience Saturn in the 7th tends to show incorrect judgment (which is why I mentioned it earlier). Much like tarot, a horary may be incorrect or partially so for whatever reason. This is divination, so there is an element of mystery to it.

If we try the 1st/10th versus 7th/4th, I still say the rulers of 7th/4th are stronger.

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Hi, thank you, Tanit for the dexter versus sinister link and other valuable information.
Tanit3333 wrote:
Thanks for sharing the Regio chart.
It was fun going to various cities via computer to find the right ascendant and MC. Recently someone posted in the nativities forum asking about the house cusp being shifted so I was curious when I saw Tanit was wondering about 5th house ruler.

I haven’t practiced sports astrology ever since my home team baseball went downhill -- that was three years ago. I know there are quite a lot of experts here in the forum so I’m hoping they might teach me something.

Well, this is Rookie’s chart. He is asking will his daughter win? So, we really need to investigate 5th, 10th and 11th (7th from 5th). Players are Venus in Aries (daughter), Mars in Gemini (her opponent) and Jupiter in Sagittarius (award/honor) and as far as I can see this chart is a winner’s chart based on what I have read about sports astrology – I think sporting event charts in general are not as complicated as horary relationship charts (advise me if I’m wrong).

In this case, accidental dignity is far more important than essential dignity. For instance, Venus and Mars are peregrine. They are in essential debilities but here it could mean neither of them are defending champions. One of them could have been a champion in a prior year but that was then and doesn’t carry over to this year’s competition, unlike a boxing match. So, we need to drop 10th vs 4th method. In relationship horary, Venus in Aries could be a detriment if the other party wants to have a submissive girl, but in sports astrology it is a strength. Her dispositor being poor is a welcome thing for Venus and unlucky business for Mars.

The Moon is very important in time-based events. This chart’s exact starting time is unknown because Rookie posted the chart several days before the final. Therefore, I would assign the Moon to Rookie rather than the Moon taking a part in hourly competition.

As for Saturn blocking Venus reaching to Jupiter, if this is prohibition then will Mars win instead of Venus? I doubt it (Mars has just separated from Jupiter by opposition). But someone must win… this is a sports event, and so it went. Rookie said his daughter won by a tie-breaking rule. Therefore, I wonder what is Saturn doing here in 7th house?

Venus is Triplicity in Capricorn and that’s where Saturn is located. If I count 7th from 5th, Saturn is placed in daughter’s derived 3rd house. This house represents communication, interaction and movement (such as walking, etc.) The daughter requires great physical strength with ability to use her body muscles. Could Saturn limit her movement? Either she could have jumped higher than her opponent (but Saturn limited her ability) -- this is a negative Saturn attempt... or Saturn limits her activity (in a positive way) and she took less attempts than her opponent and she won -- therefore Saturn is not prohibition. I’m not sure my reading is convincing. If this failed, I could blame Saturn in 7th house.
Last edited by Part of Fortune on Sat May 25, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PoF - regarding Venus receiving Saturn by exaltation, Deb has told me before that you generally want it the other way around. You don't want to receive the malefic, you want the malefic to receive you to protect you. If you receive it, you take on the negative energy more significantly whereas if it receives you, it is under obligation to do no harm or less harm. I have asked many questions on reception over the years and that seemed pretty standard from the literature.

Venus is in a sign that Saturn does not receive and what Andrew Brevan I think coined 'deception,' which is a non classical way to view it when a planet approaches from the sign of another's fall or detriment, meaning the other planet does not 'like' it, while the other approaches from domicile or exaltation (Deb did not agree though):
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 5398#53587

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2949

Deb would say 'like' is more so via aspect, though. A square is obviously a difficult relationship between two planets, and a Saturn square is potentially quite difficult.

I feel like this chart is a futile attempt to make Venus look better than it is, but that is just my opinion. Maybe it would help if I read literature on game predictions rather than using what I know about classical astrology.

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Rookie wrote:
My daughter was one of two that jumped the highest height but took less attempts in the competition and won the even on that tie breaking rule.

She is the State Champion
Rookie, how does that number of tries work?
Why she did less than the other?

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So each athlete gets 3 attempts at each height to clear. If you clear on the first height, don't have to take another at the same height. So in this competition, My daughter did not miss at all, while the other girl missed twice during the competition. That alone gave my daughter the win. Had my daughter missed along the way of the competition, there are additional tie breaking rule, but they were not needed in this competition

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Rookie, regarding useful info, maybe Lehman is worth reading:

https://leelehman.com/wp/index.php/1998 ... -to-start/

So is horary useless in sports? Not at all! But I wouldn’t pin your hopes on getting more than an occasional success out of it....

The purpose in all sports prediction is to predict the outcomes at better than 60% accuracy, which is the typical winning percentage that you have to beat to make money betting on the games.
In other words, even Lehman does not claim a game chart will grant 100% accuracy.

Also, more apropos to your chart (she says planets may behave differently in game charts). This is the only thing that makes this chart make sense to me (but would also make game charts potentially more convoluted if this is true):
Inferior planets in detriment or fall may not act as one would predict. In some games, Venus in Scorpio acts rather like Saturn in Aries – it produces a good effect for the signified team. Mercury in Sagittarius may produce a neutral effect.
You can also download a pdf of 12th Century Castle Besiegement in Sports by Bernadette Brady and Lehman for more info on game predictions.

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Rookie wrote:So each athlete gets 3 attempts at each height to clear. If you clear on the first height, don't have to take another at the same height. So in this competition, My daughter did not miss at all, while the other girl missed twice during the competition. That alone gave my daughter the win. Had my daughter missed along the way of the competition, there are additional tie breaking rule, but they were not needed in this competition
Thanks, Rookie.

Day of Moon and hour of Mars so this is a radical chart.

You have already mentioned that your daughter is the favorite to win. Therefore, she is not Saturn in 7th house. Because 7th and 4th are for the underdog. 1st and 10th are for the favorite but the Moon doesn’t fit the winner’s description either. That is why I’m focused on Venus and 5th house. Venus is the most elevated planet and she is placed in natural house of Saturn (10th). I think this seems to fit the description of your award-winning daughter.

After Tanit’s generous detailed explanation of traditional receptions and the very interesting threads she cited (re: Frawley), I’m not sure where in this chart Saturn fits in. All I can think is there might be a less malefic connection between Venus and Saturn who is highly dignified and placed in Venus house (7th). Saturn is also retrograde and conjunct SN. That possibly could bring up weakness in Saturn’s activities. Anyway, for whatever reason, Saturn tried to prevent your daughter from winning but did not succeed so I would say Saturn was not prohibition.