james_m wrote:thanks aj,
yes, as you have outlined it is how i understand it too..
here is what the profections look like for nov 3rd 1954 -
now the dasa lord is saturn... and on approx dec 3rd 1954 - the sub dasa lord would also be saturn - ruler of aquarius.. jan 3rd 1955 would switch to pisces - jupiter sub lord... that is how i understand it.. my software will not allow for the 12 months within the yearly profection, but i understand how it is arrived it.. thanks!

James: Yes that is correct. It is identical to SC dasha other than being sign vs house.
In BPHS for Sudarshan Chakra the emphasis is always on whether the dasha house gets advanced or harmed but easy enough to track the houses using western sign profections.
Chapter 74 states the use of the natural states of the planets with adjustments to their degree of malevolence and/or benefit depending on placement, sign, and vargas etc. Due to the combined charts it makes sense to use the fundamental nature of the planets rather than getting too complicated with functional rulerships.
But I have to catch myself here, I think maybe I am on a different wavelength than you, your interest is in the similarity between the two predictive systems, mine keeps moving towards investigating Sudarshan Chakra as a system for delineation/prediction. It's your topic and it occurred to me that this might not be your intent but rather in the use of profections.

AJ wrote: James: Yes that is correct. It is identical to SC dasha other than being sign vs house.
In BPHS for Sudarshan Chakra the emphasis is always on whether the dasha house gets advanced or harmed but easy enough to track the houses using western sign profections.
Chapter 74 states the use of the natural states of the planets with adjustments to their degree of malevolence and/or benefit depending on placement, sign, and vargas etc. Due to the combined charts it makes sense to use the fundamental nature of the planets rather than getting too complicated with functional rulerships.
But I have to catch myself here, I think maybe I am on a different wavelength than you, your interest is in the similarity between the two predictive systems, mine keeps moving towards investigating Sudarshan Chakra as a system for delineation/prediction. It's your topic and it occurred to me that this might not be your intent but rather in the use of profections.

hi aj - thanks for your comments and participation!

1) let me try to understand this better... sign verses house - what are whole sign houses? aren't they essentially the sign is the house and the planet ruling the sign is ruling the house? that is the way i am treating it... the chart might throw you off, but that is how i view signs and houses here, so i am curious if i am missing anything in your position?

2) so, the quality of the planet that rules the sign-house is critical to the interpretation, correct? that is how i am wanting to proceed forward here - with this basic concept..i would like to take some events in hamish's life to see if it holds true.. so, first thing we have to do is to figure out which sign-houses are considered malefic and which planets are considered malefic... my read on this is 3rd, 6th, 8th and 12th houses are considered more malefic in western astrology.. maybe not the 3rd so much, but 6/8/12 definitely.. the planets ruling 3/6/8/12 are saturn, venus, moon and mars... mars rules 5th which is considered positive to sag rising.. so, maybe only venus, moon and saturn are malefic here? jupiter is exalted in the 8th - does this change it? moon is very waning which is considered malefic.. overall - moon seems malefic to me...

bottom line - we need to figure out what would be malefic and benefic... in terms of house position mercury seems malefic to me... let me know what you think of all this..

3) i think we can do both here - i can learn more about sudarshan chakra and see any parallels that might exist between this and the western system of profections and you can continue to investigate this system as a stand alone system too... it is a topic i started, but i am at a serious loss without your involvement here! thanks...

on a related note - i will be out of reach from thursday til monday coming up... if i don't respond quickly - that is why!

james_m wrote: 1) let me try to understand this better... sign verses house - what are whole sign houses? aren't they essentially the sign is the house and the planet ruling the sign is ruling the house? that is the way i am treating it... the chart might throw you off, but that is how i view signs and houses here, so i am curious if i am missing anything in your position?

You have it "crystal clear" not missing anything on my position. below are the profections vs the SC dasha; no difference, house and sign in this instance are interchangable.
Hamish's Profections Hamish's SC Dasha
11/03/1953 Sagittarius | 11/03/1953 1
11/03/1954 Capricorn | 11/03/1954 2
11/04/1955 Aquarius | 11/04/1955 3
11/03/1956 Pisces | 11/03/1956 4
11/03/1957 Aries | 11/03/1957 5
11/03/1958 Taurus | 11/03/1958 6
11/04/1959 Gemini | 11/04/1959 7
11/03/1960 Cancer | 11/03/1960 8
11/03/1961 Leo | 11/03/1961 9
11/03/1962 Virgo | 11/03/1962 10
11/04/1963 Libra | 11/04/1963 11
11/03/1964 Scorpio | 11/03/1964 12

As far as benefic and malefic I see that too as the primary factor to settle as far as delineation is concerned. That is why I wanted us to be looking at chapter 74 of BPHS as it gives some brief guidelines for that. So rather than delve into the rest of your comment right now let's comb through chapter 74 and compile its guidelines for interpretation and then we can use that as a sounding board to verify it, find redundancies, adapt and add new findings etc. We can use chapter 74 as a foundation to help us create a mini working notebook to using and delineating Sudarshan Chakra.
I will be sending you a copy via email in a little while.

Chapter 74 of BPHS on Sudarshan Chakra is ready. It's a bit too long to post so I have it available as a PDF.
Anyone who wants to follow the threads on this topic is welcome to PM me requesting the doc with their email and I will send it to you as an attachment. I guess the offer will be valid so long as the topic is active.
Be Well.

thanks aj! i don't think it would be too much to share your pdf data in a post here... but it is up to you..

continuing on with the idea of analyzing hamishs chart for what are the benefics and malefics, using moon houses - i don't see any obvious malefics.. using sun houses - moon-mars are in the solar 12th house.. this would put moon as a malefic and mars as a benefic according to the pdf, as i read it.. i haven't included rahu and ketu and believe the way bphs worded it - they are malefic regardless where they land... do i have that correct?

i am going to start dropping event dates here to solicit some interest in applying the techniques we are discussing... i have yet to look at this, but hamish has been married 3 times...

his first marriage was on- nov 3rd, 1969 1pm seattle... - his 16th birthday...

i have yet to look at the profections.. i am not sure the best way to proceed with this study, but if someone has an idea - please make some suggestions.. thanks..

james_m wrote:thanks aj! i don't think it would be too much to share your pdf data in a post here... but it is up to you..

continuing on with the idea of analyzing hamishs chart for what are the benefics and malefics, using moon houses - i don't see any obvious malefics.. using sun houses - moon-mars are in the solar 12th house.. this would put moon as a malefic and mars as a benefic according to the pdf, as i read it.. i haven't included rahu and ketu and believe the way bphs worded it - they are malefic regardless where they land... do i have that correct?

Mars I don't see being a benefic at all in the SC context, could you explain your reasoning?
Mars aspects its own house by 8th glance and this would be limited to benefitting that house rather than strengthening Mars itself, but this may not be so beneficial as 2 of those houses involved are occupied by malefics (Ve Ke) in the Sudarshan Chakra. A question I have does occupation of a malefic planet house 'trump' an aspect by the lord of its house? or is it about which planet is stronger? Mars being associated with other malefics I would think this weakens its effects in this regard.
The context in BPHS 74 when considering benefics and malefics is the three charts as a whole. BPHS 74 as I read it uses the planets in their natural roles as benefics and malefics with a few special exceptions. Two of them are in Hamish's chart, so what a happy accidental pick of an example chart James. I think you couldn't have done better.

In Hamish's chart, the Sun is not considered a malefic because it is in the first Solar house as per BPHS 74 (7-9), Saturn is exalted in Libra so it acts as a functional benefic.

The Moon is weak within 72 degrees of the Sun (32.5 degrees) but still a benefic. Not quite Ksheena (New Moon) yet.
Venus I think in the context of BPHS 74 would be considered functional malefic too because he's neecha (fall) and associated with another malefic Mars. (See BPHS 74 v15-16)
Rahu and Ketu are always considered malefic in BPHS 74.
Benefics: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Saturn
Malefics: Venus, Mars, Rahu and Ketu.

Here is Hamish's SC

james_m wrote:i am going to start dropping event dates here to solicit some interest in applying the techniques we are discussing... i have yet to look at this, but Hamish has been married 3 times...
his first marriage was on- nov 3rd, 1969 1pm seattle... - his 16th birthday...
i have yet to look at the profections.. i am not sure the best way to proceed with this study, but if someone has an idea - please make some suggestions.. thanks..

At least for me, I am curious if the Sudarshan Chakra and/or dasha will be any better than a regular ascendant-wise chart for information/prediction accuracy. At the end of the day, is it any better? That's what I'm curious about.

Also must apologize, James, there are more than a few rabbit holes and some streaming consciousness in this post! An elderly British (think Raj) gent I once knew when I was in my youth called it "thingish thought." I jump back and forth from the natal (ascendant-wise chart) to the SC a few times.

I think the main goal for delineation is KISS (Keep It Stupidly Simple). If it's a valid technique the basic astrological symbolism should be pretty clear. The combined nature of the three charts, natal, Lunar and Solar makes this difficult. Compounded by the fact that each SC house can have up to three rulers.

I will try to limit it to influences on the active dasha house and its lord for now.

For Hamish's wedding on 11/3/1969
11/3/1968 to 11/3/1969 the SC main dasha of the 4th house or Jupiter was running.

[Interesting that in Vimshotarri dasha he is running the subperiod of Jupiter (in the main period of Rahu which is placed in the Solar 4th (home), Lunar 5th (romance) and natal 2nd (family) also. It can't be a coincidence that he got married on his 16th birthday, was there a legal reason for this?]

[The Vimshotarri seems to fit better than using the SC dasha, or profection.]

The SC sub-period is the third house (initiatives) or natal (Saturn), Lunar (Mars), Solar (Jupiter).
Natally (ascendant-wise) the profections would be Jupiter and Saturn respectively. Did Hamish marry an older woman (Saturn)? I'm really curious about his Ve/Me association in the D9 4th house and Sa in the 7th. Both are afflicted in D9.

Back to the SC chart... This is all 20/20 hindsight but Natal ascendant and Lunar Rahu are in the fourth house of the home. Rahu here is not good for a stable home life because of an underlying dissatisfaction with it that disrupts mental peace.
In Hamish's chart, Ju rules two of the signs in the SC 4th house. The Lord of the natal (Pi) and Lunar fourth (Sg) house of home is activated (Jupiter) is in the SC seventh house of marriage and partnership. The SC 4th is also negatively aspected by malefics from the 10th house. I can see Rahu's influence for an impetuous decision to marry.

Back to Jupiter for the moment. Ju is also placed in the Lunar 9th and Solar 10th. Ju aspects the SC 4th from the solar 10th and is associated with malefics.
Does this come into play too?
What's not to say the event wasn't a terrible new job in real estate? in that case.
Ju in the 9th, would you start school or meet your Guru?
Did all three like events happen during this period? Not to likely.

Which placement of a house ruler do you take? or take them all? Even limiting delineation to the SC house ruler or rulers is a "slippery slope." Does that leave us with just the SC house then?

Solar Saturn as ruler of Cp is also in the SC 4th you could argue is activated to being placed in the Lunar 11th and Solar 1st. 11th and 1st house activations are not uncommon in marriage events but its very tempting to keep going and knowing when to stop when we have three charts. This is why I think its important to initially limit how far one can pursue an event with this chart, or you can make anything go.

A planet ruling two signs out of the three to an SC house I think are important to the affairs of that house and its condition is relevant, but singly I'm not so sure.

Natural Karakas I believe are valid at this point.

Do occupied houses receive aspects? Do occupied houses receive malefic aspects depending on the strength of the residents? benefic aspects? Can a planet singly from one of the charts affect a combined SC house? Take Lunar Mars for example, it aspects the SC 4th house but none of the other SC 1st house planets aspect it. In this case does Mars aspect afflict the SC 4th house on its own? Rahu is a already there so its hard to tell unless maybe Hamish's home life was/is violent/harsh in some way.

The SC 7th house is receiving aspect from the SC 1st. There are three benefics and two malefics, the Moon is very weak, so its pretty even without splitting hairs and the aspect would be newutral of you don't take any one planet in isolation.
Venus the natural significator for marriage is quite weak in Virgo (neecha or fall), vargotamma* so neecha in D9, and associated with malefics so all of this would suggest overall misfortune in marriage.
*vargotamma, in this case, does not help at all. Planets need to be at least mostly strong to gain much good from vargotamma.

Not to close to you but be sure protect your throat from wolves on your weekend music trek.
BBC News. 2019. “Wolf Attacks Family Camping in Canada National Park,??? August 14, 2019. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49351040.

from chapter 74 - stanza 24-26 bphs..
"If there are benefics in Bhavas other than the 12th or 6th, the Bhava concerned will produce favorable effects. In other words, if the benefics be in the 12th or 6th from the Bhava concerned, unfavorable effects will be derived in the related year, month etc. If there be malefics in the 3rd, 6th and 11th from the Bhava, assuming the role of Lagna, then these three Bhavas will produce auspicious results."

aj - sorry for the delay!!! i think i was projecting my thoughts on planets in the 12th being negative and this rule of benefics in the 12/6 axis actually being a negative.. i think i extended the idea to think of malefics in teh 12/6 axis being a positive... re-reading the pdf you gave me, this is all i can conclude as to why i thought mars might be a benefic in hamishs chart.. with this in mind an your comment below about mercury being a benefic in hamishs chart, how does this rule work out for mercury in the 12th here? ps - i am projecting the idea of profection rules - which is how i read stanza 24-26 - onto the rasi, or natal chart and how to interpret it.. this might also be a mistake on my part..

i am still kind of busy for the next few days, but get freed up after friday supperfime! i will be back to respond to other posts and comments then.. thank you!

AJ wrote:

james_m wrote:thanks aj! i don't think it would be too much to share your pdf data in a post here... but it is up to you..

continuing on with the idea of analyzing hamishs chart for what are the benefics and malefics, using moon houses - i don't see any obvious malefics.. using sun houses - moon-mars are in the solar 12th house.. this would put moon as a malefic and mars as a benefic according to the pdf, as i read it.. i haven't included rahu and ketu and believe the way bphs worded it - they are malefic regardless where they land... do i have that correct?

Mars I don't see being a benefic at all in the SC context, could you explain your reasoning?
Mars aspects its own house by 8th glance and this would be limited to benefitting that house rather than strengthening Mars itself, but this may not be so beneficial as 2 of those houses involved are occupied by malefics (Ve Ke) in the Sudarshan Chakra. A question I have does occupation of a malefic planet house 'trump' an aspect by the lord of its house? or is it about which planet is stronger? Mars being associated with other malefics I would think this weakens its effects in this regard.
The context in BPHS 74 when considering benefics and malefics is the three charts as a whole. BPHS 74 as I read it uses the planets in their natural roles as benefics and malefics with a few special exceptions. Two of them are in Hamish's chart, so what a happy accidental pick of an example chart James. I think you couldn't have done better.

In Hamish's chart, the Sun is not considered a malefic because it is in the first Solar house as per BPHS 74 (7-9), Saturn is exalted in Libra so it acts as a functional benefic.

The Moon is weak within 72 degrees of the Sun (32.5 degrees) but still a benefic. Not quite Ksheena (New Moon) yet.
Venus I think in the context of BPHS 74 would be considered functional malefic too because he's neecha (fall) and associated with another malefic Mars. (See BPHS 74 v15-16)
Rahu and Ketu are always considered malefic in BPHS 74.
Benefics: Sun, Moon, Mercury, Jupiter and Saturn
Malefics: Venus, Mars, Rahu and Ketu.

AJ wrote: At least for me, I am curious if the Sudarshan Chakra and/or dasha will be any better than a regular ascendant-wise chart for information/prediction accuracy. At the end of the day, is it any better? That's what I'm curious about.

right... that makes a lot of sense and i agree with you..

AJ wrote: I think the main goal for delineation is KISS (Keep It Stupidly Simple). If it's a valid technique the basic astrological symbolism should be pretty clear. The combined nature of the three charts, natal, Lunar and Solar makes this difficult. Compounded by the fact that each SC house can have up to three rulers.

i am wondering if the dasha lord - or what is called the profection lord for the year isn't really only gotten from the ascendant, as opposed to the moon or sun? this way, only one dasha lord would be in emphasis for the year... a sub lord could be gotten for each month too, but i think this is just off the ascendant rasi.. i could be mistaken, but it would get too complicated if it was meant for each chart - ascendant, moon and sun... well, that is how i see this now... your thoughts??

i will try to comment on the comments below in my next post... i managed to stave off the wolves for the time being!! have to leave now..

AJ wrote: I will try to limit it to influences on the active dasha house and its lord for now.

For Hamish's wedding on 11/3/1969
11/3/1968 to 11/3/1969 the SC main dasha of the 4th house or Jupiter was running.

[Interesting that in Vimshotarri dasha he is running the subperiod of Jupiter (in the main period of Rahu which is placed in the Solar 4th (home), Lunar 5th (romance) and natal 2nd (family) also. It can't be a coincidence that he got married on his 16th birthday, was there a legal reason for this?]

[The Vimshotarri seems to fit better than using the SC dasha, or profection.]

The SC sub-period is the third house (initiatives) or natal (Saturn), Lunar (Mars), Solar (Jupiter).
Natally (ascendant-wise) the profections would be Jupiter and Saturn respectively. Did Hamish marry an older woman (Saturn)? I'm really curious about his Ve/Me association in the D9 4th house and Sa in the 7th. Both are afflicted in D9.

Back to the SC chart... This is all 20/20 hindsight but Natal ascendant and Lunar Rahu are in the fourth house of the home. Rahu here is not good for a stable home life because of an underlying dissatisfaction with it that disrupts mental peace.
In Hamish's chart, Ju rules two of the signs in the SC 4th house. The Lord of the natal (Pi) and Lunar fourth (Sg) house of home is activated (Jupiter) is in the SC seventh house of marriage and partnership. The SC 4th is also negatively aspected by malefics from the 10th house. I can see Rahu's influence for an impetuous decision to marry.

Back to Jupiter for the moment. Ju is also placed in the Lunar 9th and Solar 10th. Ju aspects the SC 4th from the solar 10th and is associated with malefics.
Does this come into play too?
What's not to say the event wasn't a terrible new job in real estate? in that case.
Ju in the 9th, would you start school or meet your Guru?
Did all three like events happen during this period? Not to likely.

Which placement of a house ruler do you take? or take them all? Even limiting delineation to the SC house ruler or rulers is a "slippery slope." Does that leave us with just the SC house then?

Solar Saturn as ruler of Cp is also in the SC 4th you could argue is activated to being placed in the Lunar 11th and Solar 1st. 11th and 1st house activations are not uncommon in marriage events but its very tempting to keep going and knowing when to stop when we have three charts. This is why I think its important to initially limit how far one can pursue an event with this chart, or you can make anything go.

A planet ruling two signs out of the three to an SC house I think are important to the affairs of that house and its condition is relevant, but singly I'm not so sure.

Natural Karakas I believe are valid at this point.

Do occupied houses receive aspects? Do occupied houses receive malefic aspects depending on the strength of the residents? benefic aspects? Can a planet singly from one of the charts affect a combined SC house? Take Lunar Mars for example, it aspects the SC 4th house but none of the other SC 1st house planets aspect it. In this case does Mars aspect afflict the SC 4th house on its own? Rahu is a already there so its hard to tell unless maybe Hamish's home life was/is violent/harsh in some way.

The SC 7th house is receiving aspect from the SC 1st. There are three benefics and two malefics, the Moon is very weak, so its pretty even without splitting hairs and the aspect would be newutral of you don't take any one planet in isolation.
Venus the natural significator for marriage is quite weak in Virgo (neecha or fall), vargotamma* so neecha in D9, and associated with malefics so all of this would suggest overall misfortune in marriage.
*vargotamma, in this case, does not help at all. Planets need to be at least mostly strong to gain much good from vargotamma.

Not to close to you but be sure protect your throat from wolves on your weekend music trek.
BBC News. 2019. “Wolf Attacks Family Camping in Canada National Park,??? August 14, 2019. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49351040.

james_m wrote:re-reading the pdf you gave me, this is all i can conclude as to why i thought mars might be a benefic in hamishs chart.. with this in mind an your comment below about mercury being a benefic in hamishs chart, how does this rule work out for mercury in the 12th here?

I must have been considering Mercury being alone in the sign of Sc. If we consider it alone in sign placement it would be a benefic, though badly placed in the 12th... but,
You are right, thanks for pointing this oversight out.
The rule I think in v24-26 applies to the "ascendant of the year." because v. 24 begins... "At the time of commencement of a Dasa..."

More fundamental to the question of Mercury as benefic or malefic is the basic character of Mercury as a neutral when associated with malefics becomes a malefic.

If you take the planets in the SC 12th and SC 2nd I think Mercury tips over to the malefic side since it is associated with weak and malefic planets.

Since the Sun is singled out as a benefic in ch74 I think we can conclude that a malefic or benefic applies to the whole SC chart.

I had another reply post but it is gone now. Must have not submitted it or closed the browser tab. Oh well. Look forward to your comments.

aj,

thanks for your many fine and informative comments..

i have had to ponder this for a while.. i have the background of having read ben dykes translation of abu ma'shars 'on the revolutions of the years of nativities' which is referred to as 'on solar revolutions' persian nativities volume 3.. in this book i learned more about profections and how they are used in connection with solar returns, primary directions thru the bounds, planetary periods, indian ninth parts and etc. etc..

as you helpfully point out - when a chart has the sun or moon in the same sign as the natal chart ascendant - the 3 part chart gets simplified down to the natal chart, which actually happens in my case... i really don't believe they would be using the profection lords of three different signs per year! however, i am trying to honour what the info from the BPHS says which you have graciously provided...

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as for mercury as malefic or benefic - do you believe mercury is connected to a malefic to make it malefic, or could it be malefic purely based on being in the 12th? i see it is tied to rahu via trine... is that what you are thinking?

i really want to get a grip on what is or isn't a benefic and malefic according to indian astrology... as you mentioned previously - this is not an easy task..

--------

the basis for hamish getting married when he was 16 is canadian law at the time in b.c. would only allow for him being married when he was 18 or 19...so, yes - that is why he married in seattle on his 16th birthday..

--------

i can't help but think we are complicating it by running everything thru 3 charts as opposed to the one chart.. i do believe the lunar and solar charts are quite relevant and can help give us more information, but my feeling is they wouldn't have been used this way with this concept of profections... i have no way of substantiating this though! i can fall back on the book i reference above, but this takes us away from indian astrology into persian astrology!! i do believe they are connected however and i ponder what was retained and what was lost in the communications between these different cultures... i don't have a clear picture of the history of india, but i do recall visiting india and places like jodphur where there seem to be a lot of history that makes me think the info from persia and india would have cross pollinated at some point in history..

---------

so, i am back to trying to define what is a benefic and malefic to hamishs chart.. as far as venus vargottama in hamishs chart - this sounds like both you and therese view this as a negative... venus is a natural signifactor for marriage and relationship and perhaps a persons relationships with women in particular.. it would also be a symbol for artistic involvement... all this would depend on not just the sign, but the house and aspects to venus too... that would make it more personal... hamish as i think i said - is on his 3rd marriage... the last one happened on dec 31st 1999.. below is the chart for this event which took place in tanzania, africa...



below is an overlay of natal chart with event chart on the outside... one can note the interesting set up with mercury in both charts... ascendant for the time is triggering venus in virgo - 3rd time lucky? hamish remains married to the same women since and seems to be on good terms with her... one can also note what appears to be the importance of the opposition of transit saturn to natal sun in this chart as well...