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Superior square

 
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:39 am    Post subject: Superior square Reply with quote

Hi all,

Just wondering what the census is on superior square between aries and capricorn, especially if say, mars is in aries in a night chart and mars of second person is in capricorn but its a day chart? Who dominates?
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 371

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Stellar,


I’m dealing only with two Mars and without any aspects to other planets (also ignoring houses). The first Mars in Aries (night chart) square the second Mars in Capricorn (day chart) and you asked who dominates.

To summarize: if both Mars are equally equipped (see the list below) then, immediately displaying or demonstrating the dominance is Mars in Aries. However, in the long run, I think Mars in Capricorn comes to the top.

Here’s my reasoning:

1st Mars in Aries (night chart)

This Mars is in domicile (+5) and it is a masculine Mars. Very active and expressive Mars in fire sign (hot and dry). If not well trained, it could bring out an aggressive and impulsive side with little regard for the partner. If Mars is well trained, then s/he could be very supportive of the partner.

If Mars is placed above horizon – in sect (stronger). If it is below horizon – out of sect (weaker).
Does Mars have any other essential dignities? In Term (+2) or Face (+1).
How about debility such as peregrine (-5)?



2nd Mars in Capricorn (day chart)

This Mars is in exaltation (+4) and strongest at 28 degrees. It is a feminine Mars and knows how to work with the partner. The aggressive and impulsive side of Mars is met with the practical, structured and grounded side of Capricorn and knows how to achieve and accomplish what s/he wants. Here Mars could be very competitive (but Mars in Aries might not know that).

If Mars is placed above horizon – out of sect (weaker). If it is below horizon – in sect (stronger).
Does Mars have any other essential dignities? In Term (+2) or Face (+1).
How about debility -- is Mars peregrine (-5)?


If my summarized version does not answer your question, then perhaps adding up the above numbers might work for you. Well, please let me know what you think. Thanks.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1067

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Just wondering what the census is on superior square between aries and capricorn, especially if say, mars is in aries in a night chart and mars of second person is in capricorn but its a day chart? Who dominates?


I just wanted to mention that synastry isn't really considered a traditional astrology topic, which has been discussed in the past here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Normally when I think of comparing which planet dominates in an aspect I think also of dexter versus sinister placement and in order to look at that, one of the planets is going to apply to the other and part of the interpretation. Here the planets are the same planet.

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 371

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tanit. I learned a lot from your comment, and I'm still studying it. Very Happy


Umm... here's more Stella,


My ratings in the first message were taken from Ptolemy's Table of the Essential Dignities of the PLANETS.

I have different ratings by Charles Obert from his book entitled: Using Dignities in Astrology.

On page 191 he gives different numbers for these ratings.

Term (3), In Sect (3) and Out of Sect (-3)


You wrote your message quite a while ago. If you already have a result, could you let us know?
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 371

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:

I just wanted to mention that synastry isn't really considered a traditional astrology topic, which has been discussed in the past here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Normally when I think of comparing which planet dominates in an aspect I think also of dexter versus sinister placement and in order to look at that, one of the planets is going to apply to the other and part of the interpretation. Here the planets are the same planet.

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html


I read the 2011 (and 2013) synastry discussions that you posted (again, thanks for that link). It was quite interesting that these very knowledgeable astrologers were able to find some information on synastry among the traditional astrologers and pointed out that various references and discussions of it existed in the ancient world (and in Lilly) in spite of not much information being generally available on the subject.

Anyway, Tom and Michael have left the post open... so it looks like it is OK to bring synastry up in this forum.


Tanit, I'm confused about how to read dexter versus sinister placement regarding two planets which are in partile opposition to each other. So for instance:

The Moon in Aries at 2:47 and Saturn in Libra at 2:22. The Moon had already perfected opposition to Saturn. Is this still considered dexter (right hand side)? Also is this considered waxing?

Or since the Moon is already past Saturn by 25 minutes and now moving away, therefore is it sinister (left hand side)? Is it waning? If you think the dexter/sinister question should be in a different forum, I can take this question over to Nativity or Horary. Thanks.
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although my name isn't Tanit, Smile I'll answer this and say that traditional sources do not apply the dexter/sinister distinction to oppositions, only to the aspects of which each planet has two (sextiles, squares and trines). And although I'm not a moderator of this particular forum, it seems a very appropriate question for it to me.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 371

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, that explains… I tried to find some information regarding “opposition” and found none, though I found Anthony Louis mentioned “conjunction” in one of his books (but that’s another story).

Thank you very much Martin! I was looking at one of the illustrated figures from “The Classical Origin and Traditional Use of Aspects” (the link Tanit posted). I started to wonder who dominates who if the case is Grand Cross. So, if I were to continue the subject of who dominates who on Grand Cross and I start from where I left – I will develop this into Grand Square (without oppositions) therefore here is the scenario: The Moon in Aries, Saturn in Libra (original members); to this I will add Mercury in Capricorn and Jupiter in Cancer.

Here, if I adapt from the illustrated figure (the figure that is directly above the quote from Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, IV.3):

The Moon (Aries) square Mercury (Capricorn) -- Mercury dominates the Moon.
The Moon (Aries) square Jupiter (Cancer) -- the Moon dominates the Jupiter.

If I use a mirror image of the above example:
Mercury (Capricorn) square Saturn (Libra) – who dominates? (is it Mercury?)
Jupiter (Cancer) square Saturn (Libra) – who dominates? (is it Saturn?)

Or If I go by the clockwise direction:
Mercury (Cap) square Saturn (Libra) – Saturn dominates Mercury??
Saturn (Libra) square Jupiter (Can) – Jupiter dominates Saturn??

Also, a faster moving planet is mentioned in THE HOUSES Temples of the Sky by Houlding (dexter/sinister page 128).

Overall, it is very puzzling… Confused
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Greek, the concept often translated as domination is derived from the word deka, 'ten'. When two planets form a square, A will be in the 10th sign from B, and B will be in the 4th sign from A (counting inclusively, in zodiacal order). The planet that is in the 10th from the other dominates the aspect.

Application is a different consideration: sometimes the planet in the dominating position is the faster-moving planet (the one applying), sometimes the slower planet (the one being applied to). And then you can factor in things like reception and non-reception, angularity and non-angularity... It can become quite complex, but then so is life. Wink
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 371

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
In Greek, the concept often translated as domination is derived from the word deka, 'ten'. When two planets form a square, A will be in the 10th sign from B, and B will be in the 4th sign from A (counting inclusively, in zodiacal order). The planet that is in the 10th from the other dominates the aspect.

Application is a different consideration: sometimes the planet in the dominating position is the faster-moving planet (the one applying), sometimes the slower planet (the one being applied to). And then you can factor in things like reception and non-reception, angularity and non-angularity... It can become quite complex, but then so is life. Wink


Thanks Martin (you made my life less complex!).

For a good several hours I was staring at the illustrated figure (the figure that is directly above the quote from Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, IV.3) and trying to follow the directions of the various arrows and became quite confused when I decided to added two more planets to make a Grand Cross!

Thanks again for your time explaining this to me -- much appreciated. Thumbs up
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Michael Sternbach
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Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 548
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of Fortune wrote:
Tanit3333 wrote:

I just wanted to mention that synastry isn't really considered a traditional astrology topic, which has been discussed in the past here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6409&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Normally when I think of comparing which planet dominates in an aspect I think also of dexter versus sinister placement and in order to look at that, one of the planets is going to apply to the other and part of the interpretation. Here the planets are the same planet.

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html


I read the 2011 (and 2013) synastry discussions that you posted (again, thanks for that link). It was quite interesting that these very knowledgeable astrologers were able to find some information on synastry among the traditional astrologers and pointed out that various references and discussions of it existed in the ancient world (and in Lilly) in spite of not much information being generally available on the subject.

Anyway, Tom and Michael have left the post open... so it looks like it is OK to bring synastry up in this forum.


Tanit, I'm confused about how to read dexter versus sinister placement regarding two planets which are in partile opposition to each other. So for instance:

The Moon in Aries at 2:47 and Saturn in Libra at 2:22. The Moon had already perfected opposition to Saturn. Is this still considered dexter (right hand side)? Also is this considered waxing?

Or since the Moon is already past Saturn by 25 minutes and now moving away, therefore is it sinister (left hand side)? Is it waning? If you think the dexter/sinister question should be in a different forum, I can take this question over to Nativity or Horary. Thanks.

(Emphasis added by the quoter.)

Hi Part of Fortune and All

Tom quit moderating this forum altogether, this task has fallen to me.

And for me, the criterion whether a topic belongs here or not would simply be its overriding thrust.

It is correct of course that synastry is not generally considered a traditional method, however, since your question primarily pertained to the evaluation of aspects in traditional astrology, posting it here seems fair enough. Smile

Your friendly moderator
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 371

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much Michael. Very Happy
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1067

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify, when I mention a topic does not fit a particular forum area well, it is meant as advice to the OP in case they want to move the thread to the area where it may get more attention. This might be why the post was ignored for 6 months. I never said anywhere that I believed the post should not be allowed, nor was that my intent. I do not remove posts in the horary forum either that do not belong but I will advise the OP that their question may not fit their audience.
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Michael Sternbach
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Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2020 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well noted, Tanit.

Just for the record, I did not assume anything other than that. Smile
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