This quote from Culpeper is something that I looked at within the context of this question in my book on the houses. You can see some of the discussion and a more detailed citation to where the quote appears on this link from Google books

Thank you Deb
I read your book when it was out but had forgotten that you expalined clearly there how the meanings of the signs and the houses started to get confused.

Great! Thanks guys!

Hi Deb,

Thanks. Let?s see if I can clarify this a bit further.

So I just want to point out that the passage is clearly demonstrating a northern hemisphere orientation.

Actually, I disagree.

The passage is not demonstrating a northern hemisphere orientation? it?s demonstrating orientations from the ?torrid zone?, south of the Tropic of Cancer.

but it looks to me like you are taking Aristotle?s passage as support for an argument that the zodiac originated in the Southern Hemisphere.

What I?m saying is that Aristotle?s passage evidences both location and conceptions (as at the period of his writings) from latitudes on or south of the Tropic of Cancer (ie. closer to the equator).

As do the inverted zodiacs, the one?s with zodiacal constellations rising in the east on the right,ie.
- Denderah zodiac, 6th nome of Upper Egypt
- Amra fresco, Jordan
- Bir-chana, Zaghouan, central Tunisia
- Athribis zodiac, Upper Egypt
- Mithras emerging from cosmic egg, Hadrian?s Wall (Mithra tracing back to India)
- Esna zodiac
- Ethiopian zodiac in Amharic
- And zodiac plaque of Jewish months discovered in Messopotamia (which I?m checking into)

So yes, ?south? - southern. South of the Tropic of Cancer.
And I don't believe we can discount the influence of ?Upper? Egypt and Southern India.

If drawing from classical writers, it?s a focus largely centered in Egypt, where for example Meroe (lat. Approx. 16N56 of equator) in ?Upper? Egypt (now Sudan) was an international trading centre shipping goods to India & China etc. Meroe was a notable point among classical writers.

And, Ptolemy (83-161AD) for example, was said to be born in Ptolemais Hermiou, in the Thebais which contained the 13 southernmost nomes of ?Upper? Egypt (southern Egypt).

But rightward motion is that which moves from the ascendant towards the midheaven. You have to imagine that the astrologer is facing towards the east ? where the observation begins ? so that he has the midheaven on his right and the IC on his left. Planetary movement from the ascendant to the midheaven is appropriate, right, (rightward)

There is a difference between midheaven of a year and zenith.

Rightward motion relates primarily to the direction of the year (not the direction of the day ? to orbit, not axial rotation) when facing East. Whether it?s of Egyptian or Babylonian orientation.

And when it comes to the direction of the year it?s important to know when the year was taken to have commenced, the calendrical orientation which prevailed in society at the time of the astrologer/astronomer. Because the numbering of months is what gives us the numbering of houses.

In Egypt the ?head? or start of the year started with sighting of new crescent moon after heliacal rising of Sirius.

This heliacal rising of Sirius occurs when the Sun rises about 12 degrees (days) after the ecliptic degree of Sirius (Sirius aligns to around 20 degrees on the ecliptic in constellation of Gemini using sidereal, which the ancients did ? positional astronomy/astrology) which places the Sun in constellation Cancer for Sirius to be visible ?heliacally? ? visible before the rise of the Sun.

Sirius is also a star of southern declination, ie south of the equator. The orientation for ascent is primarily towards the south.

At around the time of heliacal rising of Sirius the Sun would reach maximum declination to the ?left? when facing East - rises from the maximum point ?left? (the ?lower?, visible point of the pole, north) on the horizon.

From there the sun begins its ?rightward? motion, ie. each sun rise moving progressively to the right (south) along the horizon to arrive at maximum point (the ?upper? point) from the east-facing point, this maximum point right considered the ?upper? (south).

Sun risings over the course of the year - taken from the start of the Egyptian year (rising of constellation Leo, first new crescent moon after heliacal rising of Sirius which is visible when Sun?s in constellation Cancer) - swing from the left (north) progressively to the right of the east-facing point in line with the culmination of Sirius ... culmination occurring when late degrees of constellation Sagittarius are ascending (ie. around 31 Dec/1 Jan in today?s Gregorian calendar reckoning).

Like a pendulum over the course of the year, when facing east the Sun swings from left to right, from ?lower? to ?upper? which is also a basis for the designation ?lower? and ?upper? Egypt.

That is from visible pole (NCP) to invisible pole (SCP) from north to south, from ?Septentrio? [Aratus? ?The Twister?, Ursa Major for the Greeks, Ursa Minor for the Phoenicians, the Seven Great Sages of Hindu astronomy), the Arctic - up to the invisible pole, the Meridies (Antarctic, south, the annual zenith position of high noon).

This was ?high noon? for the Sun over the course/direction of a year ? not the zenith position that occurs within one 24 hour rotation day which fluctuates left/right of East point in the torrid zone according to obliquity of the ecliptic within the larger round of a year.

And this left-to-right/right-to-left motion (ascent/descent) is what gives rise to the domiciles of the planets.

For example, for the domiciles the zodiac belt is divided in halves, the first half extending from the beginning of Leo to the end of Capricorn. Maximum point left (north) ascending to the right (south) when facing east.

This direction from Leo to Capricorn is the ?rightward? motion of the sun, namely commencing from the ?lower? or underworld (as per Egyptian beginning of year) ascending to the right. This ?rightward? motion being given to the sun, whose domicile is the first sign, Leo.

The other half is given to the Moon. It extends from the beginning of Aquarius to the end of Cancer which is domicile of the Moon.
This is the "leftward" passage of descent, from the regions of the ?upper? right to the "lower" left.

The planets also have two motions of direction, retrograde and direct and also have domiciles on the Sun side (the right) and the Moon side (the left).


To try and illustrate this here:

Commencement of Egyptian Year.

........ Cancer .................. Leo
....... Moon (left) ................ Sun (right > and up to Capricorn>)
Gemini .............Mercury............ Virgo
Taurus ............. Venus ..............Libra
Aries .................Mars.............. Scorpio
Pisces .............Jupiter ............ Sagittarius
Aquarius .......Saturn .......... Capricorn
(left & down to Cancer)

* This is also order of signs on right (as in right-hand side) ascending zodiac.

From Leo to Capricorn is direction of ascent (rightwards, towards the ?upper?), from Aquarius to Cancer is passage of descent, ?leftwards?.

The ?uppermost? direction (south) is also given the domicile of the ?uppermost? planet, Saturn, and it goes in order from there.


When in the ?torrid? region, between Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn, the shift from left of the east point to right is clearly apparent.

Whereas a day is (and was) based on axial rotation, circumpolar motion.

For the direction of this motion what was considered (and still is) was rotation of stars around the visible pole (Ursa Major, Ursa Minor).

And this direction of rotation is the reverse to that of the direction of a year. Motion still originates from the right (when east point is considered one?s right, per Aristotle) and sets in the west on the left, but is contrary to the direction of the year. It's from right to left.

Going back to the motion of the year, the annual motion is also reflected in ?The Book of Coming [or Going] Forth by Day?, which is known as ?The Book of the Dead?, the succession of days from the ?lower? or ?underworld? to the ?upper?.

In ancient Greece start or ?Head of the Year? was Hekatombian which is close to the Egyptian start to the year. It also was the time for games (the Olympiad).

There was a question as to why Leo was a barren sign - reason being because during the month that constellation Leo rose, particularly the first week or so (month marked by new crescent Moon which is also commensurate with Sun?s ingress into the constellation) the earth was barren and dry.

For the Egyptians the Lions would be forced due to nature?s conditions to come in to drink at the Nile (the ?dogs? of the desert) and also flag the attention of farmers to inundation, whereas for Greeks it would herald dogs etc coming into townships scavenging for food.

For agricultural purposes and the seasons, farmers etc went by the risings of stars ? not the cardinal points of the year to which Ptolemy attached the signs/months.


The (Babylonian - Jewish) ?Head of the Year? or start to the year ? Rosh Hashanah - was ?Tishrei? which corresponded with the rising of the constellation Libra (the scales) in the East, the ?balance? wherein souls were weighed and judged for deeds of past year so as to commence afresh for new year.

Same orientation from "left" to "right", except they started year from a point of balance in the middle, facing east the Scales, from which point the risings of the Sun then swung to the right in its annual course, rather than beginning from the extreme left to the extreme right.


The start of the year for the Romans was Ianuarius, as it had been since 153 BC.

This was commensurate with the upper culmination point in the year for ancient Egyptians etc, In Rome it was the time when pontiffs, cardinals, consuls were appointed ? not seasonal.

And, if you start from a point at the top as the Romans did with Ianuarius (the ?upper? right when facing east, following Sirius culmination), then from there the direction is down, descent, to the left via the Hades way (Hekatombian, IC, north pole) for judgement before rising again.

The Babylonians used Fixed Star Spica as their 0 point, which marks 0 degrees of the constellation Libra (the Scales). Still does in sidereal. The point opposite being 0 Aries.

The Moon also swings like a pendulum from left to right, only instead of a year it completes the transition in a month. And it also swings approx. 5 degrees further ?left? and ?right? (north and south along the horizon), culminating at these maximums every 18-.19 years. There is also a highest Moon that occurs over passage of a year & a lowest one.

Reference to the tropical zodiac as being a seasonal zodiac is a misnomer.
The Egyptians were well aware the cardinal points were wondering points within the round of years, as were the Hindus, as were the Babylonians who in the time of Ptolemy had the vernal equinox taking place at 8 and 10 degrees Aries (Spica was used to judge start of astrological year)? all of whom started considerations with the stars.

For example, the hottest days of the year in Rome are still heralded by the heliacal rising of Sirius ? not the Sun, they do not occur at the Summer Solstice but now instead in the Gregorian month of August.

Perhaps the displacement might also give pause for thought about the nature of heat, global warming, for it?s not just earth?s orientation to the Sun but it?s overall orientation to the celestial sphere that demarcates the nature and quality of time.

A decrease (or lowering) in solar activity ? which is also reflected by sunspot cycle along with the Sun?s progressive passage to the ?left? and ?down? - is also commensurate with an increase in earth?s volcanic activity which precedes an ice-age (mini or otherwise). Cyclical in nature. The current activity around earth?s Ring of Fire was flagged by Mars conjoining via longitude fixed star Sirius earlier this year.

In the days of Hipparchus, the north pole (NCP) was approx. 12.5 degrees away from Polaris. Now it?s aligning to within half a degree.
Earth hasn?t shifted on its axis ? the whole orientation of its axis has shifted, changed in relation to the celestial sphere by 12+ degrees north/south due to precession, which also affects earth?s orientation with regard to the Sun, and is also commensurate with a reduction in the ?torrid? zone, ie. the span from Tropic of Cancer to Tropic of Capricorn has been decreasing.

The fault line which has been active and gave rise to the 2004 Tsunami reaching the south east coast of India and recent events in Burma, runs directly north and south in alignment with the celestial poles ? earth?s axis is currently aligning with Polaris.

In addition, when the oceans off the east coast of India drew back in the 2004 Tsunami, it displaced centuries of sands etc, and it revealed the ruins of a 1,200 year old lost temple city/port, Mahabalipuram, that was swallowed by the sea in a tsunami hundreds of years ago.

This was where six of seven temples or pagodas were lost to the seas ? this reflects the understandings based on the stars and nature, the alignment with Polaris, the last standing star commensurate with the last standing temple. Seven is the number of stars in Ursa Minor (Polaris - Cynosura - the dog's tail).

In 365 AD was the Crete earthquake - an undersea earthquake that occurred at about sunrise on 21 July 365 AD in the Eastern Mediterranean. The Crete earthquake was followed by a tsunami which devastated the eastern coasts of the Mediterranean, particularly Alexandria and the Nile Delta, killing thousands and hurling ships nearly two miles inland.[6] The quake left a deep impression on the late antique mind, and numerous writers of the time referred in their works to the event.

The point being that in the dissemination of this ancient knowledge to regions further north, in trying to understand it appears there was a time when backs were turned ? literally ? on the significance of the motion of and around the north pole & the stars. An accident of position when studying the ancient texts perhaps.

We see this confusion between directions manifest with illustrations of Ptolemy?s Sphere.

For example in his Geography which has an illustration of his sphere on pge 22 with Septentrio (north, NCP, Ursa Major/Minor) in the direction of Antarctica.

Marinus (Ptolemy?s Geography):

?We learn from Hipparchus that the star in Ursa Minor which is the most southerly or which marks the end of the tail (Polaris), is distant from the pole 12 and 2/5 degrees and that in the course of the sun from the equinoctial to the summer solstice the north pole continually rises above the horizon while the south pole is correspondingly depressed and that on the contrary in the course of the sun from the equator to the winter solstice the south pole rises above the horizon while the north pole is depressed.?

Ptolemy: ?In these statements Marinus narrates only what is observed on the equator, or between the tropics.?

The ?southerly? description of Polaris being based on using the zodiacal co-ordinate system where the north celestial pole is observed ?south? or ?below? the ecliptic. Not the terrestrial direction south.

Ptolemy in his maps has east (right) west (left) which is carried through in mapping today, which corresponds to right ascending zodiacs & southern pov - but it's not reflected in astrological charts of the north.

Under early Christianity, north was placed at the top (leftward direction to north pole) while in Arabic/Muslim world south (rightward direction to south pole) was placed at the top, reflecting two different orientations to the world in its larger context and which direction was considered "up".

The Description of the Four Celestial Cardinal Points in Astronomica:
Astronomica, Book III Chapter 3, Verses 1 to 6, Marcus Manilius c 10 - 20 Be careful then, and with a curious Eye,
Observe four fixt Hinges of the sky;
One constant point their settled place defines,
Altho' they vary in their moving Signs;
One fixt i'th' EAST, where with a gentle ray,
The Sun views half the Earth on either way,
And here brings, on and there bears off the day,
One on the West, from whose declining steep,
The Sun falls headlong, and enjoys the Deep:
The third in Heaven's high point, where midst the Course
Bright Phoebus stops, and breaths his weary horse;
He stands a while, and with an equal Ray,
Views East and West and then drives down the Day.
Oppos'd to this, the Fourth securely lies,
The immovable Foundation of the Skies;
The lowest point, to which with steady Rein
The Stars descend, and whence they mount again:

From right (east) to left (west) to Heaven?s High Point (Meridies, south) to the immovable foundation of the skies, the lowest point, ascribes the figure 4.

Astronomy-astrology was based on the observable. The lowest point, ?the fixt and sure Foundation of the Skies? was not under the earth out of sight, it was the bottom of the skies, ie. the North Celestial Pole opposite Heaven?s High Point (the invisible pole)

Aristotle: For right in anything is, as we say, the region in which locomotion originates, and the rotation of the heaven originates in the region from which the stars rise (east). So this will be the right, and the region where they set the left.

This direction from right (east) to left (west) references First movement, rotation, 24 hour day. This was prime.

Aristotle: ?If then they begin from the right (east) and move round to the right (south), the upper must be the unseen pole (the south pole). For if it is the pole we see, the movement will be leftward, which we deny to be the fact.?

This references second movement, earth?s orbit, that of a year and a calendrical orientation to the year.

If the year starts from the east (right), and moves to the right (Meridies, south, culmination of Sirius), then this is the Babylonian/Hebrew orientation to the year commencing with Tishri (Head of the Year, Rosh Hashanah) and the rising of the ecliptical constellation of The Scales (Libra).


If the year begins with the rise of Aries constellation, then this is the eastern facing point from which the sun then proceeds to swing to the left, down towards the north celestial pole into the ?underworld?.

If considering biblical accounts in this, then this direction from the middle (east) left and to the north ? from Aries constellation rising when facing the East the sun?s risings then proceed to travel further and further to the left and north along the horizon when still facing East. This was the direction the ancient Hebrews were said to have fled from Egypt when facing east. Hence, in Judaism Aries (constellation) is also a marker for ?Pesach? ? Passover.

And in view of the ?parting of the red seas? and the ancient knowledge of polar motion, it?s conceivable this event was also related to a Tsunami prediction.

When it comes to the direction of the year and numbering of houses (months), finding where and why a planet?s considered to joy, of prime importance is the point from where the year was considered to start.

For example, Venus rejoicing in the 10th ? is that the 10th month/house taken from the Egyptian start to the year (placing its joy in ascent of house/month Taurus), Roman ?head of the year?, 1st month commensurate with Capricorn rising placing it?s joy in Libra, or from the Babylonian start to year (Tishri ? The Scales, placing it?s joy in Cancer) or from Ptolemy?s starting the year at Aries placing its joy in Capricorn?

Is Venus' place of joy on the left side (Moon) or the right (Sun), as evening star (Hesperus) or as morning star (Phosphorous - 'bringer of light')?

Yes, there has been an inversion (many of them) in translating all this from ?south? to ?north?, left to right, diagrammatical errors, inversion of houses (months), inversions of poles, a shift from right to left.

Its history in Mesopotamia as an 18 constellation path of the Moon, later reduced to a 12-sign zodiac based on the Sun?s path is robustly recorded.

Hystaspes (A King of Iran, Central Asia or eastern regions of greater Iran) is described as an ancient Persian king contemporary with Zoroaster (1100-900 BC).
Of Hystaspes, Ammianus Marcellinus (325-330 to at least 391 AD) (xxiii. 6, 32) has this to say:

?Hystaspes, a most wise King, father of Darius. He, while boldly exploring the hidden parts of upper India, came upon a lonely forest region whose still quietude was peopled by the wisest of the Brachmani: from them he learnt, so far as he was able, the system of the course of the world and the stars, and the ritual of a fire-worship; and some part of his learning he infused in the minds of the Magi, by whom, along with the lore of predicting the future, it is handed down to later ages through the descendants of each.?

Mesopotamia housed some of the world's most ancient states with highly developed social complexity. The region was famous as one of the four riverine civilizations where writing was first invented, along with the Nile valley in Egypt, the Indus Valley in the Indian subcontinent and Yellow River valley in China.

The Babylonians did not develop their knowledge in isolation. The Chaldeans (well versed in the arts -Magi) were of southern Babylonia where meets the Persian Gulf, 6th century BC being the Chaldean Dynasty.

The Brachmani Magi (wise men) of India mentioned above were referred to also by Ptolemy in The Geography (Brachma situated in India at a latitude approx 19N) as well as Marco Polo.

In addition, Mero? of ?Upper? Egypt was the base of a flourishing kingdom spanning the period c. 800 BC - c. 350 AD whose wealth was due to strong iron industry, textiles, jewellery, gold, plus an international trade involving India and China.

Kind regards,
TS.

Hi TS,

I?m still confident that what I wrote in my earlier post is correct but you are, of course, free to disagree. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

Deb

Thanks, Deb.

Yes, I disagree in view of the abundance of evidence to the contrary.

The East facing theory is all good except for one important thing ? to determine months of the year the Babylonians faced WEST (not east).

Beginning of Babylonian month was when a new crescent moon was first sighted low on the Western horizon at sunset. The calendar based on a Sumerian predecessor preserved in the Umma calendar of Shulgi (ca 21st centry BC).

The ?rightward? motion is also the direction the Moon travels from the setting sun towards the East (rightward) from beginning of a month.

When new crescent Moon is observed in Aries in the West, the setting Sun is below it in Pisces. The Sun ingresses into Aries approximately 14 days after sighting of new crescent Moon, at which point the Moon is full.

Moon travels from Aries to Taurus etc in clock-wise direction from West, sunset, left to east (right) as observed from latitude of Cairo (30N) or Alexandria (31N).

The zodiac direction is the inverse to what?s commonly seen today in western British/European/North American astrology which has East on the left due to sun appearing to rise from left in relation to view of ecliptic and succession through the signs counter-clockwise.
Yes, there has been an inversion to accommodate solar perspectives from a more northern hemisphere pov.

The Dendera zodiac (one of these inverse zodiacs) is aligned with the center of the universe (galactic center is in Sagittarius), and the heliacal rising of Sirius leads from bottom towards top ? ? heaven?, center of the universe - as it reaches culmination. The Egyptian calendar year was oriented to this.

The domicile/rulerships of the planets that are used today are based on the Egyptian orientation to the year, and the planets ?exaltations? attributed to signs/ constellations that are also used today, eg Saturn in Libra etc appear to be based on these planets heliacal risings (except Mars, its exaltation to do with a transfer of power and emergence of life from water).
Ref: Denderah zodiac. Here?s a pic that may help identify - http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterOne/Tra ... nderah.htm

The previous mention of Saturn?s ?joy? in the 4th appears to be commensurate with starting inception/conception of the months of the year from new Moon in Cancer and Saturn's exaltation in Libra (4th) ? counting months from Egyptian/Greek orientation to start of year.

Kind regards,
TS

Thankyou Tumbling Sphinx. You are a gold mine of information!
Your latest and last but one postings are a bit difficult to follow for a right-brained astrologer, but you seem to agree with me that an inversion of zodiac direction occurred to accomodate the order of the constellations as seen from latitudes further north. Perhaps the Greek astrologers were responsible? And if this inversion was not adopted by all astrologers at once - and the examples we have of clockwise zodiacs existing up into the middle ages suggests this - do you believe a confusion concerning house signification and the joys could have resulted, as I suggested in my article?
You also write: Quote:
'The domicile/rulerships of the planets that are used today are based on the Egyptian orientation to the year, and the planets ?exaltations? attributed to signs/ constellations that are also used today, eg Saturn in Libra etc appear to be based on these planets heliacal risings (except Mars, its exaltation to do with a transfer of power and emergence of life from water). '
I would be very pleased if you could expand on these thoughts.
Regards, Phoebe

Hi TS, Phoebe

This issue seems to be drifting into a lot of unecessary speculation, when there is actually a very simple explanation for the 'mystery' being discussed here.

Phoebe, I?ve now had chance to read your article and can see that you definitely are suggesting that the order of the signs in the Dendera zodiac argues for a southern hemisphere origin to their symbolism, (as also shown by your last post). You write as the introduction to your article:

One day, while looking at a drawing of the Dendera zodiac, I noticed that the signs run clockwise round the wheel. Being used to signs running anticlockwise, I was puzzled. Had the nineteenth century artist who made the copy been careless? I checked his version against photos of the original zodiac, which confirmed that the signs indeed run clockwise, which means that the zodiac wheel is depicted as turning anticlockwise.
My curiosity roused, I went on to investigate a sample of graphic zodiac representations from different centuries and different cultures and discovered the following:

? the older the representation the more likely the signs would run clockwise
? the latest western clockwise zodiac found dated from the 16th century
? the zodiacs in contemporary horoscope diagrams from north India run anticlockwise, whereas in south India they run clockwise

A list of the clockwise zodiacs found is given in the appendix at the end of this article.
Presuming that the direction in which a zodiac is drawn corresponds to current astrological practice, and is not the error of an astrology-ignorant artisan or artist, these results have interesting implications. For example clockwise zodiacs are drawn facing north, with the east and the Ascendant on the right instead of on the left ((Fig. 1). This affects the geographical orientation of the houses and could also affect their signification. Secondly the greater antiquity of clockwise zodiacs implies that this was the consensus direction at a time in the past. If this is the case, it is likely that a switchover occurred in the late Hellenistic period when Greek horoscopes begin to be drawn anticlockwise.

The problem is that you have adopted a perspective of the Dendera zodiac which regards it as an astrological chart wheel, whereas it is, in fact, a sky map, in which the zodiac constellations have only a small representation amongst the surrounding constellations. Although the signs run anti-clockwise around an astrological chart, it is not at all unusual to find the representation of the zodiac circle running clockwise in sky maps and constellation charts. Carole Stott?s Celestial Charts: Antique Maps of the Heavens, is mainly a collection of sky maps and shows many similar historical depictions, as well as many historical depictions of anti-clockwise representation. She explains on p.8:

It is important to consider the angle from which the image is viewed. Our model of a ball-like earth inside a transparent celestial sphere illustrates the two contrasting ways of viewing and therefore depicting the stars. Man views the stars from the earth looking out toward the ?inner surface? of the imaginary spherical shell. This is how constellations are now depicted in star maps and atlases. But on some older maps, and most obviously on globes, the constellations are depicted as though viewed from outside the celestial sphere. It is in fact the reverse picture of how the constellations actually appear in the sky.

The Dendera zodiac is a good representation of the heavens according to that perspective. So the matter is resolved if you adopt the usual perspective of the Dendera illustration being a sky map. It has nothing to do with a southern hemisphere origin of astrology, and the order of the signs in this illustration really doesn?t have anything to do with the associations of the houses or the dignities of the planets. Sorry if this disappoints, but the inverted view of the heavens quite obviously presents the answer here. This ?outside looking in? view of the heavens is also the reason we often come across graphic representations of the individual constellations that appear to have their ?rights and lefts / norths and souths? mixed up.

Here's a link to a more recent sky map that shows the same 'clockwise zodiac' representation.


Hope this helps
Deb

Thankyou, Deb.
The Carole Stott quotation was most helpful for understanding the two different perspectives from which sky maps were drawn. But now back to astrological charts, which purport to be sky maps and derived from what?s called today visual astrology.
In South India it has been the tradition to use a clockwise direction for the zodiac signs in a chart, and in North India to use an anticlockwise direction. Could it be that the south Indian practice is the more ancient one, dating from pre-Greek times, and the north Indian practice has been influenced by the Greek view? The choice of the clockwise order could derive from viewing the constellation from outside the celestial sphere, or more likely, as the astrologers were erecting charts for a specific location, from viewing the order of the constellations when facing north.
Also I suggest that the square form of Indian charts (and of all later square charts) derives from the ancient symbolic meaning of the square, or cube, as the earth. And this points to the division of the square into 12 equal fields in Indian charts as representing houses rather than signs.
In my article ?The Spin of the Wheel? I give a diagram taken from ?Hindu Predictive Astrology? by B.V.Raman, showing examples of square charts used in India today. They each have 12 equal fields providing a matrix into which the signs and planets are filled. The ascendant may lie anywhere in the square ? not necessarily on the right or the left. And the houses receive their numbering, which is not entered, according to its position. They are simply counted round the square when the astrologer is passing judgement, following the direction of the signs (clockwise in south India, and anticlockwise, in North India) So, although it doesn?t matter which direction the astrologer is facing when he erects a chart, whether he uses a clockwise or anticlockwise order for his signs is still significant.
Perhaps the practice of using a clockwise order is more ancient. Vehlow claims (Astrologie Vol VII p.306) that astrological wisdom and practice can be traced back 15,000 years to a culture that extended over much of south Asia and shared a common language and beliefs. These people did not live on northerly latitudes where they would have been led to look south to view the constellations of the ecliptic, and therefore to develop the practice of representing them in an anticlockwise order.
I suggest the horoscopy of south India derives from this ancient culture. Also it is possible that their square diagrams represent in their origin a mathematical division of the local landscape. So, when we look at a square chart, what we see are houses with signs amalgamated into them, and not the reverse.
Best wishes from Phoebe

Phoebe Wyss wrote:Vehlow claims (Astrologie Vol VII p.306) that astrological wisdom and practice can be traced back 15,000 years to a culture that extended over much of south Asia and shared a common language and beliefs.

Sorry for the question, but would you be so kind as to inform us about Vehlow's arguments on his claim? Thank you.

Best wishes,

Levente

Hi Levente,
Vehlow references three books below these pages of the volume -
R. Karutz: Maria im fernen Osten,
Kugler: Sternkunde und Sterndienst in Babel,
and Ginzel: Handbuch der mathem. u. technischen Chronologie.
He seems to have come to his conclusions through studying the Vedas, comparing alphabets and calendars, and investigating early stations of the moon astrology in China and in the Brahmana period in India. He claims, disagreeing with Kugler, that the names of the 28 mansions of the moon predate Babylon.
Best wishes from Phoebe