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Is this a radical chart?

 
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Anna



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Sweden

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: Is this a radical chart? Reply with quote

Hi all!

I wonder if this chart that I casted is radical. If I am to try to interprete it as it is or if it should be turned.

I can not post the chart itself since I dont know how to do that. But maybe someone can take the time to look at it anyway? Or post it even?

Question asked: Is my ex-lover coming back to me now that I am single?

Asked September 6, 2008 at 8:18 am in Stockholm, Sweden.

Day of Saturn
Hour of Mars

I get Libra rising. Asc conjunct Venus/Merc in house 1. That seems to fit with me since I have Asc conjunct Venus/Merc in house 1 in my natal.



Lord 7 is Mars wich very much describe my ex. He is a redhaired artilleryofficer in the Swedish armed forces. He is not a young man but his looks and personality is very youthfull.

What makes me wonder is the Lord of the Hour. I have somewhere read that the Asc and the Lord of the Hour shall be the same if a chart is to be considered radical. Or have I missunderstood that?

Best regards/Anna
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cosmicdolphin



Joined: 15 Jun 2007
Posts: 730

Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anna

it is very much to be YES

There is translation of light
Venus/Merc/Mars
Someone will connect you 2.

Moon void - dont worry about it ..
Planet of the hour? most people do not even look at it although i have seen astrologers who do.

keep us posted

CD
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4676
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mars, Lord of the hour, is in the same sign as Venus, Lady of the ascendant. They apply to each other in conjunction, hence the chart is radical.

The question is cast on the Day of Saturn and in the Hour of Mars. The quesited is actually an artillery officer - a man in a uniform! I like that one! Smile

The Moon is fixed, cadent and will enter interception in Sagittarius in the 3rd, which is the 9th from the 7th. In my opinion it looks more like someone may consider going abroad sometimes within 6 months.
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Mark
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have somewhere read that the Asc and the Lord of the Hour shall be the same if a chart is to be considered radical. Or have I missunderstood that?

Hello Anna,

Combining the positions set out by both Bonatti and Lilly there are 4 conditions that can confer planetary hour agreement making a chart radical.

These are:

1 Hour-ruler is the ascendant ruler
That is the hour ruler rules the sign on the ascendant.

2 Hour-Ruler and ascendant ruler are in the same triplicity.
That, is both are in air signs, or both in fire signs, etc

3 Hour-ruler and ascendant are of the same triplicity:That is the triplicity ruler agrees with the signs it rules by day or night.

4 Hour-ruler has the same humoral nature as the ascendant:That is, 'hot and dry' planets agree with hot and dry signs'.

Combining Bonatti's position with Lilly on the triplicity agreement increases the number of charts that will confer planetary-hour ruler agreement.

While planetary hour agreement is one of the technical means by which the question of whether a chart is radical can emerge it would be probably fairer to describe this as an ideal condition for judging a chart. However, even Bonatti seems to imply that astrologers are not expected to dismiss all charts where this criteria is lacking.

Quote:
'I estimate it ought to happen this way in any question, unless perhaps there is at some time a sudden urgent reason , emerging suddenly, which demands a sudden question, and a sudden response which does not admit of delay (as often happens).''
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Anna



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks from me to you all for your time and the very clarifying answers.

Now I know how to proceed with the interpretation.

At a first glance at least, it seems rather promising. Leery

Anna
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Ema



Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Posts: 206
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Mars, Lord of the hour, is in the same sign as Venus, Lady of the ascendant. They apply to each other in conjunction, hence the chart is radical.


Hi Andrew, I can't get your logic, can you explain? I was thought by my horary tutor Olivia Barclay whom I trust to have researched this topic well enough, that planetary hour harmonizes with the ascendant (ie ruler of the ascendant) if one of the following conditions is fulfilled:
1. The ruler of the hour is of the same triplicity as the ascendant.
2. The ruler of the hour is the same as the ruler of the ascending sign.
3. The ruler of the hour and the ascendant are of the same nature.
(For more see HAR p. 111).
Now, following this logic, in this case Mars as ruler of the hour doesn't harmonize with ascendant in Libra. Can you comment on this please? Thanks!
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4676
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ema,
I am sure you are refering to Olivia's series of articles titled "A Natal Astrologers Guide to Horary", which appeared in the Transit. Olivia didn't actually research into the topic of radicality. She quoted it. Olivia was extremely dedicated to tradition, hardly ever departed from it, and was very skilled in everything she did. We have debated the question of radicality on several other threads at this forum. The question is whether the lord of the hour and the lord of the hour being in the same triplicity proves the chart radical, or whether the lord of the hour in aspect with the the lord of the ascendant proves the chart radical.

I did in my work move beyond the concept of whether radicality simply said whether a chart could be read or not, and thought it described a kind of contract. By interpreting this contact alone I found that this often was enough to answer and resolve the question with accurate detail. You may pop by my site if you like and view some of this material at www.astronor.com/hours.htm

The main object of radicality is to see whether the heavens are 'in tune' at a given moment or not. If the moment is 'out of tune', then the question will not work or bring no joy. The relationship between the lord of the hour and the radical ascendant and its lord, and the blending of the powers of these planets (/signs) tells you something how the matters will work out in effect.

Olivia does refer to my work on receptions and variations of this in her book on Horary Astrology, but unfortunately does not mention my studies into the use and interpretation of the question of radicality.
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Ema



Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Posts: 206
Location: Slovenia

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am sure you are refering to Olivia's series of articles titled "A Natal Astrologers Guide to Horary", which appeared in the Transit. Olivia didn't actually research into the topic of radicality.


Hi Andrew, I'm not referring to those series of articles but to her text from her book Horary Astrology Rediscovered, Chapter 7 Planetary Hours (my abridged quote is from p. 111). She dedicated 4 pages to planetary hours here and made further references to them in the Cautions and Strictures chapter where she (among other things) says "I find some of Lilly's maps have the ruler of ascendant or the Moon in strong aspect to the ruler of the hour". I think that it's obvious from her research of the past masters' work and from her own charts where she very often makes reference to that "caution" that she did actually research into that topic.

Quote:
Olivia does refer to my work on receptions and variations of this in her book on Horary Astrology, but unfortunately does not mention my studies into the use and interpretation of the question of radicality.


Yes she does mention that "Andrew Bewan has investigated mutual reception by detriment" and that she has not used it, adding her reasons. As for the rest, I think that you can't blame her. It was her book, not yours, right? She was careful to give the reader those concepts that were rooted deeply in the tradition, and which she herself has found viable. She often stressed that any new discoveries must be firmly investigated and proved before one can add them to his or her "sets of rules", and I think that was wise of her. Now I'll take a look at your articles, thanks for the link!
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Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not blaming Olivia for anything. We loved her for her persistance, contribution and guidance! Olivia was particular on pointing out the difference between tradition and new ideas. No one could not be moved by her loyalty to the work of Lilly. In this context, the mere fact that she mentioned some of my work is surely a complement! Very Happy

As Olivia would point out the question of radicality was always the first consideration in Lilly's work, but this does not fully answer the question of why. How come this consideration was so important but did not receive further attention? There is a whole school of traditions delivered in connection with the use of the planetary hours. Putting this together with judgement chart provides a filter of meanings of what is going on.

The question of radicality is not a black/white issue - i.e. either the chart works or it doesn't. It is a matter of art. The relationship between the lord of the hour and the radical ascendant and it's lord conveys a qualitive message. You may add this to your judgement or make it a first priority, but I would recommend just to start by going through some of Lilly's charts bearing this in mind.

PS. Olivia did not say that she would not use the reception by detriment, which is a condition I termed as a 'rejection'. Olivia said that she did not think our astrology was yet sufficiently sophisticated to include such refinements. I believe Olivia included the quote on the basis of the work shown in one of my final QHP papers in '86.

Olivia used to love the work of those students of astrology who followed her course and it is obvious she used to put us up against eachother to get us to work even harder! If you have completed your QHP, then this is surely an acheivement to be proud of and if you still have Olivia's newsy hand written letters, then hang on to them! Thumbs up
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Anna



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Sweden

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:57 am    Post subject: Feedback concerning september question Reply with quote

Hi there! Here are some feedback.

Question asked: Is my ex-lover coming back to me now that I am single?

Asked September 6, 2008 at 8:18 am in Stockholm, Sweden.

Day of Saturn
Hour of Mars



and the answer was Hell NO! Very Happy

Interesting enough now I can see that I really wasn´t interested in anything but myself in that time. Venus in the first house in her own sign and terms.

And the VOC moon of course.

Best regards/Anna
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AquariusMoonPerson



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 83

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting. I got a reading before, someone told me it was a no but ended up to be a yes. i think its really up to us. we have the power to make things happen. love horaries are difficult. you can't make someone love you or date you. but we know in our hearts if its meant to be or not.
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Anna

I wonder if you could you elaborate a little to help us understand this chart? The chart shows the 1st-ruler applying to an unreceived conjunction of a peregrine and debilitated the 7th-ruler. Mars in the 1st house describes the ex-lover as acting against his own interests in this relationship, but this aspect shows that the relationship is not a good one for you, and that it could only happen if *you* make the moves to allow it to happen (this is because your planet is the one applying to the 7th-ruler). For support you have the Moon within orb of Venus in its next sign, but needing to cross a sign border before it can connect. Also with Mercury interposing between Venus and Mars, there is some mercurial (communications?) or 12th house issues bound up in the relationship. In fact, the 12th house is further emphasised with Sun conjunct Saturn on the 12th cusp. You mention that you are now single, but was he?

(As a background influence, we could also read the separation of the Sun from Saturn – 5th-ruler – on the 12th house as showing that some sense of ‘heavy romance’ has already been lost).

It looks to me like there would have been too many difficulties in the way of resuming this relationship, and that you didn’t think it would be worth the trouble. I might have happened, but you didn't push for it. This sounds a little like what you are describing in your feedback – but please let me know if I am mistaken or is there is more to add.

Thank you
Deb

PS – With regards the ‘indications’ of radicality, both hour and ascendant ruler are in the same sign, and so they fit the criteria of being in the same triplicity. But really it is not about the chart being radical, it is about the *question* being radical, and this 'check' is just one way for an astrologer to double-check whether the querent is asking a properly focused question that comes straight from the heart/soul. If you are asking your own question, you should know for yourself whether your question is from the heart and sincere (and therefore radical), although personally I believe that all the best horary interpretations include an independent astrologer who is responsible for casting and judging the chart. Romance questions are especially bad for the querent to also try to be the astrologer as well as the querent.
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had asked a question on 8th of september 2008. And i got yes, whereas the result was a No.

My deduction was that Pluto stationed, his dispositor Jupiter stationed, Jupiter trine with Saturn. Venus antiscia relationship with Uranus. Confused

I think that when planets are very tightly involved in close aspects. Sometimes they are not interested at all to do any thing. The question more a result of a frustration than a desire. Confused
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Anna



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 61
Location: Sweden

Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb and all of you!

Thank you for posting the chart!

Here is the story somewhat short (I don’t want to bore the life out of any of you!)

This man, let´s call him M and I had a very intense love affair from September 8, 2000 until January 9, 2001. It was so deeply intense that we couldn’t take hands of each other even in public. We felt real physical pain when we couldn’t touch each other. (Venus/Pluto conjunction in our Synastry) Very Happy

And God, I did love him! Short, rather fat with red hair that he was.
I would have walked barefooted through Europe if he had asked me to! I would have committed murder!

At that time however, I was married. My husband (whom I loved very much, although more like a father) was much older than me and very sick so there was no way I could leave him.

So M ended our affair, saying I didn’t love him enough and that he only would end up getting severely hurt.

I was devastated. The worst time in my life actually.

Well, in late May 2008 my husband passed away.

And in July 2008 M started to pop up so to speak. At work, at home, on the streets. We talked a lot and on my account all hell broke loose again. And I could feel that it did in him to.

But Deb is right (as always!) he was not single. During the last years he has hooked up with a female Scorpio who chased him already when we had our affair. She is 64! Gives hope to all of us older women!

Well, I popped the question to him September 2. If it really was too late for us. And he answered that it was. He still thought that I didn’t love him enough. And would only be leaving him in the end and hurting him.

And now I do wish to hurt him. With something heavy in the head! Very Happy

Although, as I said, looking at the chart I don’t seem so very much in love, do I?

Rather odd I must say.
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