skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

via combusta
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ‘Introduction to Astrology’ by Al-Qabisi - or Alcabitius – (translated Burnett, Yamamoto and Yamo; Warburg Inst, 2004), mentions the affliction of being in the ‘burnt path’ in chap III, 150 (p.105). A footnote adds a detail from an alternative manuscript :

Quote:
“This is from the dejection of the Sun in Libra to the degree of the dejection of the Moon in Scorpio”.


This is what Andrew suggested. It makes a lot more sense than 15-15 degrees, and explains the slight discrepancies in the references above. (The Moon is depressed in the 3rd degree, so the affliction runs until the beginning of the 4th degree, but some authors will obviously put 3 degrees whilst others put 4, etc….)

If anyone knows of older references, please add them to this thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3491
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bonatti’s 5th consideration mentions the Moon in the via combusta only.

Does he specifically state "this can ONLY happen with the Moon"? Or does he just mention an incident with the Moon?


I've moved from the other forum. No he does not, and as I stated, the only work of Bonatti's that I own is the Considerations. Since there are so many of them I can't even be sure that he didn't mention anything elsewhere. And since I don't own any other of his works, I don't know what else he may have said. I was rushing through texts looking for examples. I'm satisfied that many prominent authorities accepted as a debility planets besides the Moon in the via combusta. I am not ready to accept Lilly and Gadbury as friends. They may have been at one point, but it didn't last.

Deb wrote:


Quote:
This is what Andrew suggested. It makes a lot more sense than 15-15 degrees, and explains the slight discrepancies in the references above. (The Moon is depressed in the 3rd degree, so the affliction runs until the beginning of the 4th degree, but some authors will obviously put 3 degrees whilst others put 4, etc….)

If anyone knows of older references, please add them to this thread.


Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus of Sidon, 1st century AD under the heading Corruption of the Moon:

Quote:
If the Moon in its motion is in the path which the learned call "the burned path" (The burned path is in the middle of the equator which is Libra and Scorpio) ..." page 265


I'm not real clear on what he means by the "middle of the equator." 0 Libra would be where the equator intersects with the ecliptic in the west. Scorpio begins a full 30 degrees after 0 Libra. I don't think he is referring to the entirety of both signs.

What is interesting is that this is in a section on "Interogations" or horary, and by extension elections. For he says at the beginning of this section:


Quote:
Then he mentioned the condition of the Moon and its corruption in which a commencement is not to be made in an action or anything until the condition of the Moon and its Lord are ameliorated." p 264


I didn't see anything pertaining to the planets, but I didn't read the entire work before writing.

Abu Mashar (787 - 886 AD) Abreviation of the Introduction to Astrology Charles Barnett Trans., ARHAT page 35 under Corruptions of the Moon


Quote:
" ... the eighth (of 11 corruptions - tc) if it is in the burnt path, these are Libra and Scorpio. ..."


Well maybe Dorotheus did mean the whole signs of Libra and Scorpio. I found nothing where the other planets are afflicted in the via combusta regardless of where it is.

Finally for the record I'll but Ibn Ezra's comment in here even though he post-dated Alchabitius:


Quote:
"The weakness of a planet is when ... [it is] in the Fiery Road which is from 19 Libra to 3 Scorpio."


The translator (Meira Epstein) and editor Rob Hand wrote the following footnote::

Quote:
"Note the Fiery Road is defined from the fall degree of the Sun to the Fall degree of the Moon [Additional by Rob Hand] The point is we have no way of knowing whether this is meaningful or coincidence.


Lots of ideas on where this "fiery road" is, and we haven't touched on why, yet.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am not ready to accept Lilly and Gadbury as friends. They may have been at one point, but it didn't last.


This (although slightly offtopic now) is from John Gadbury and his thanks to Lilly for offering his sources to him, obviously they were good friends at the time of this. I do not know enough about their personal history to make any statements beyond that but here is the reference I was referring too. Again I apologize if this is slightly offtopic.

Quote:

When I first of all adventured upon this task, I made my intention known unto my truly honored friend, Mr. William Lilly, who, upon the hearing thereof, very nobly, and like a true and faithful propagator of Art and learning, gave me many encouragements to perfect the thing I intended; and that I might not want the sight or assistance of the best authors, both Arabian and Latin, he most civilly and freely offered me the use of his study towards the accomplishment hereof : without which signal favor and respect, it had been impossible for me to have framed it so perfect as thou now seest it. And I hereby return my hearty thanks, as the only Testimony of a grateful heart, where a richer requital is wanting. - Doct of Nativ. Introdution to the Reader


As for via Combusta, has it been considered the inconsistancies of this point have to do with the orbs of the Planets involved in this? What I mean is that the Sun has an orb of 17 degrees and a fall in Libra, where as the Moon has an orb of 12'30 and its fall in Scorpio. Now its stated that via Combusta starts in 15 degrees Libra(15Lib-0Scorp) unto 15 degrees Scorpio(0Scorp-15Scorp). The middle point of this would be 0 degrees Scorpio (15 degrees on either side). If we follow the orb rules of the planets (Sun+Moon orb/2 or Sun/2+Moon/2) we come to almost exactly 15 degrees orb on either side of our middle point. I find that quite a significant coincidence. Im sure that this will be torn apart but it is Mercury retrograde so Im sure to have made a mistake somewhere. Does this work? Am I missing something?

Aaron Brody - Astro.Teacher
http://antiquus.prophp.org
Antiquus Astrologia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the same discussion about the exact meaning of this so called “middle of the equator” is present also in the case of Vettius Valens. In the first book, when explaining the qualities of the Libra and Scorpio, he is using the following word: “ekleiptikon”. Now comes the rough part.
In one opinion the translation would be “a place for eclipses” (this translation I found in Schmidt. it’s present also in an earlier translator, Bara “lieu des eclipses”, which is the exact French translation of “place for eclipses”.
According to a second opinion (this the opinion of Giuseppe Bezza, a great specialist in classical languages), the word “ekleiptikon” used by Vettius Valens for Libra and Scorpio (only for them), means “defective” (in the sense that something is missing, is incomplete) because those signs are opposed to Aries and Taurus, which are the exaltation of luminaries (hypsomata). so this would be the origin of the later via combusta.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3491
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This (although slightly offtopic now) is from John Gadbury and his thanks to Lilly for offering his sources to him, obviously they were good friends at the time of this.


Just to point out that things change read this quote from Gadbury in Britain's Royal Star (1661).

Quote:
I know astrology is sufficiently under the Hatches at this day in England, and by the major force of wise and ignorant, not only neglected, but condemned by reason of the Sycophancy, Leidgerdemain, and Grand Juggling of that Arch Parasite Merlinus Anglicus; who for many years hath been falsely reputed the Chief Astrologer among us."


Merlinus Angelicus is, of course, William Lilly. Anyone who read or studied Gadbury's delineation of the nativity of King Charles I can only whistle in admiration at Gadbury's chutzpah calling anyone a sycophant.

As for the orbs, interesting idea. The only problem I have is that different authors give different orbs for the various planets.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
astro-teacher



Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Merlinus Angelicus is, of course, William Lilly. Anyone who read or studied Gadbury's delineation of the nativity of King Charles I can only whistle in admiration at Gadbury's chutzpah calling anyone a sycophant.


Thanks for the quote! I do wonder (out of curiosity) the origin of their feud. I notice that the published date of the manuscript I quoted from is 1658, so that is not very long after.

Quote:
As for the orbs, interesting idea. The only problem I have is that different authors give different orbs for the various planets.


That could also be a contributing factor in why its not always 15Li-15Sc. Of course I cant prove this past a few examples but I am curious of others opinions, if the via Combusta degrees match those of Sun+Moon/2 orbs of the authors who write about both.

Aaron Brody - Astro.Teacher
http://antiquus.prophp.org
Antiquus Astrologia
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3491
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks for the quote! I do wonder (out of curiosity) the origin of their feud. I notice that the published date of the manuscript I quoted from is 1658, so that is not very long after.


Deb is better versed in this than I am as are others on this list and not too surprisingly they're all British. I'm a bit surprised at the dates. Lilly was a Parliamentarian during the English Civil War and Gadbury was a Royalist. Each produced propaganda for his side. I would have expected a fallout prior to 1658, but I am not expert in the period.

I've often thought of writing something on astrological rivalries. They're as old as the art, and they continue into the present time. A couple of good ones were Cardan vs Guarico, Lilly v Gadbury, Morin v everyone, etc. Worsdale had it in for Sibly, and on into modern times there were feuds between Alan Leo and AJ Pearce, and Sepharial raised a few eyebrows. In the US astrology barely got going in the mid 19th century when Luke Broughton and his former pupil William Chaney got into it, but Chaney was less well behaved in that one than Broughton. When women feud they do it with less fanfare. Evangeline Adams pretended her former teacher and later competitor, Catherine Thompson simply didn't exist. There is a lot of, "If you're right then I'm wrong and that can't be so you must be a fraud" in these rivalries, not to mention the financial motives.

I know I know - off topic

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, it is getting a bit off-topic – so if you are going to continue your ‘gossip’ you should start a new thread ( Secret however, for the juicy bits go to David Plant’s article on Gadbury – this link will take you straight to the relevant part about their spat: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gadbury.html#gl )


Re: Via Combusta - Tom mentioned some references that only appeared to mention the signs, and I should point out that in the Alcabitius reference I gave at the top of this page, the main text says of the ‘burnt path’: “this is from Libra to Scorpio”. The extra detail was added as a footnote, taken from an alternative manuscript.

Sasha, I was fortunate to meet Giuseppe Bezza recently, and I would take his opinions very seriously. Al Biruni seems to use a similar logic:

Quote:
"The combust way is the last part of Libra and the first of Scorpio. These two signs are not congenial to the Sun and the Moon on account of the obscurity and ill-luck connected with them and because each of them is the fall of one of the luminaries. They also contain the two malefics, the one by exaltation (Libra, Saturn) the other by house (Scorpio, Mars)."


But still, I find the description of the area as ‘burnt’ intriguing, especially given the ancient descriptions of the ecliptic as the golden or burning path. This brings in the question of why the Sun is exalted at 19 Aries? And with the knowledge that the VP was placed in the middle of Aries in ancient sources, I can’t help wondering if the tradition of the Via Combusta is itself extremely ancient. In any event, the main emphasis seems to have fallen on these two signs being where the luminaries are weak and the malefics strong, and different astrologers could argue different opinions on whether that should be closely tied to the exaltation degrees or split between the signs. I am personally shifting in my opinion – veering more towards the area between the two ‘fall’ degrees; but up to now I’ve never felt a great connection to the symbolism of the Via Combusta, so I have never really placed too much emphasis upon it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first the real question, can someone point me to an article or reference of why planets are exalted at particular degrees? I've always wondered? it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, the sign yes, the degree? well why?

now the smart alec reply; the sun of course is exalted at 19 Aries because that is my Descendent cusp.... Lala Happy

but would like some real references on that. I do wonder if the planets in question aligned with some fixed star when this practise came into being? especially since all the degrees of exaltation seem to be different?

and when was it decided that these particular degrees were exalted?

thanks, granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
delaforge



Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 125

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi granny:

Can't tell you how old the exaltation degrees of the planets are, but I can say that they form part of Vedic astrology where, with one minor difference, I think, they are the same degrees used in the West.

Cyril Fagin believed they were degrees held by the planets during one particular year in antiquity, the year a library was built in Babylon, or in Mesopotamia somewhere. Most are the degrees held at the foundation of this library, or so Fagin believed. It would be New Moon chart. The position of Mercury would have to refer to some other event/phenomenon. The information is in Fagin's book Zodiacs Old and New as I recall.

De la Forge
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4674
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we agree upon associating the Via Combust with the fall of the Sun and the Moon, then in a general way the entire signs of Libra and Scorpio will reflect the stricture.

In respect of either horary or astrology of the moment, my experience tells me that if both Sun and Moon are in Libra and Scorpio, so that either both luminaries are in their fall or in mutual rejection and ABHOR in the location of the other - as with the Moon in Libra and the Sun in Scorpio, then the moment carries no light and the postulation is either false, running along an erronous path or the matter collapses completely.

In the case of women with nativities where the lights ABHORED or rejected each other, I often found these women getting them selves into a tangle finding it difficult to receive themselves, their fruitfulness, their ability for recreation and reproduction - and often taking to ABORTION. Hence, when I found this CAUTION in the chart I always paid extra attention and took the extra time to carefully sort things out and place things in their right context.

Now, if we determine that the exact fall of the Sun is at 18LI56 ( http://www.astronor.com/hours.htm ), then according to other strictures of old we also know that the last 3 degrees of a sign, or leading up to a cusp, induce a state of particular restlessness (I believe I go into detail on this in the article on the included link regarding the exaltation degrees of Venus and Mars). So something happens or changes in the 16th degree of Libra because this is 3 degrees ahead of the fall of the Sun.

Any significator in exact opposition of the Sun (+/- 2 degrees) will bring the matter signified by that planet to ruin (basic Lilly). But then the 15 degrees from the fall of the Sun to the fall of the Moon has an effect that is akin to the combustion. My experience with the first 15 degrees departing from the Sun and under the Sun's beams, is like something struggling to get out of starting blocks but that has not secured itself and come to an upright position. Like a new born baby that clings to life, although life has not yet established its firm grip and the infant is most vulnerable to crib death during the first 15 months after birth. This might prevent matters achieving the required velocity - hence the matter in question may lead no where and collapse.

The opposite side of the zodiac to the exaltation of the Sun and the exaltation of the Moon, hence the area of the luminaries' falls - this is the Via Combust. Adding the 3 degrees prior to the degree of the fall of the Sun as a situation of stress. That would suggest 16LI-4SC.

Now - the luminaries exhanging their detriments (Moon in Aquarius and Sun in Capricorn) also causes a situation of abhor. We may in time expand our understanding of technique as we get a better hold on the meaning of the planets REJECTIONS, i.e. Mercury in Capricorn and Moon in Sagittarius, or Mercury in Cancer and Saturn in Pisces.

Olivia Barclay does quite briefly mention my investigations into this field on page 103 of her book "Horary Astrology Rediscovered", (c) 1990.

Andrew
_________________
http://www.astronor.com


Last edited by Andrew Bevan on Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Andrew Bevan



Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 4674
Location: Oslo, Norway

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must quote Sylvia DeLong while we're at it, who says on pg 67 of her book 'The Art of Horary Astrology in Practice': The planet in the via combust is unfortunate or debiliated; the exception being the 23rd and 24th degree of Libra, whis is Spica's current position.

Andrew
_________________
http://www.astronor.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 256

Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've recently come at this from another direction.

I have found a number of references to the via combusta being used as a line in palmistry. Cardan gives it as a minor line. Also:

"The line of Fortune or Saturn begins at the wrist lines, extends through the hollow of the hand to the mount of the middle finger. If this line be cut or severed it is called the Via Combusta..."
The Path, 1895 (based on Vedic palmistry).

And http://www.johnnyfincham.com/history/rothmann.htm gives Johannes Rothmann defining it as a Saturn line, but that might be a misreading - I will check.

More oddly...

About ten to twelve thousand years ago a disaster of a major proportion occurred on Earth, which Christianity portrays as the great flood. Ancient texts speak of a Golden Age where man suffered no disease and lived for up to a thousand years. Some believe that our present solar system at one time existed of a binary pair instead of our single star, that gave illumination to our Earth twenty-four hours a day. ... This great celestial explosion is said to have taken place at 19 degrees Scorpio, hence the reason that this constellation was been named Via Combusta, or ‘The Burning Way’.
http://www.angelfire.com/psy/reading/Moon.html

Can anyone shed any light on any of the above?
_________________
www.kimfarnell.co.uk
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated