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A case of kidnapping
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Pete

I'm like you, I'm looking for the silver lining in every cloud and the best possible outcome in every chart! Smile.

Thanks for the additional remarks. Yes, I had seen the "detained and cannot have liberty" as regards the fourth. . . but I thought you had, too, since we both came to the conclusion the quesited would not see his spouse again within the two week time frame of the question!

The chart just seems very clear about this, I'm sad to say. What it says about the quesited's return within two weeks, it says at least three ways, and I tend to believe that seals the judgment.

I also use antiscia to show an event quite frequently. Unless I see an obvious applying aspect or translation/collection of light between quesitor and quesited which makes the search superfluous, I look for them on every chart. I'd get way too many false negative answers without looking at the antsicia. Unfortunately for this question, however, I do not see applying aspects to antiscia to working out. It seems antiscia are narrow in their focus, although they work independently of applying or separating aspects between planets or even can bring events in a chart showing a Void of Course Moon.

How do you read Lilly on his instructions about the return of the quesited on page 407? Is there a reason why we wouldn't look for the conjunction between Mercury and Jupiter to show the reunion--apart from the obvious frustration of the intervening planets? Lilly says nothing about frustration, he just says "it is very probable" the two will reunite when both of the significators come to conjunction. How would we apply that? It would be outside the two week time frame, but it might give more closure to the question if we attempted to apply this method.

Thanks for your example of compassion and dedication in reading this chart.

Best,

Pam
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Pam,,
first off, apologies for the delayed reply. I've been busy with college-related stuff and a forecast I'm working on.
Quote:
Yes, I had seen the "detained and cannot have liberty" as regards the fourth. . . but I thought you had, too, since we both came to the conclusion the quesited would not see his spouse again within the two week time frame of the question!

Actually I hadn't seen it. I came to my own conclusion based largely on the slow, cadent and fallen Moon. Moon
Quote:
Unfortunately for this question, however, I do not see applying aspects to antiscia to working out. It seems antiscia are narrow in their focus, although they work independently of applying or separating aspects between planets or even can bring events in a chart showing a Void of Course Moon.

Can you clarify in what way you feel the application of Mercury to the antiscion of Jupiter won't bring about the sought after resolution? I agree that this is a tricky judgement, given that Jupiter rules 7th, 8th and 11th.

Quote:
How do you read Lilly on his instructions about the return of the quesited on page 407? Is there a reason why we wouldn't look for the conjunction between Mercury and Jupiter to show the reunion--apart from the obvious frustration of the intervening planets? Lilly says nothing about frustration, he just says "it is very probable" the two will reunite when both of the significators come to conjunction. How would we apply that? It would be outside the two week time frame, but it might give more closure to the question if we attempted to apply this method.

Exactly, yes. This is precisely why I examined the antiscion degree of Jupiter at 9 Sag'. Mercury will reach it eventually, albeit after entering cazimi, then combust again, then conjunct the combust Mars. What intigues me about this whole process is that Mercury changes phase from a morning star to an evening star, then eventually becomes visible again after the conjunction with Mars and one degree beyond the conjunction with Jupiter's antiscion degree. I'm wondering if this is some secret, or covert handover of some sort? Will the wife (Jupiter) simply "see" her husband, rather than be reunited with him? Mercury may have left combustion but it is still under the sunbeams.

Oh by the way, I spoke to the cousin of the victim on Monday and she was able to confirm that the kidnappers claim to be with the Taliban, so it seems that my first declaration - that they had some fundamentalist religious underpinning - was right. Negotiations are still ongoing and the captors, as of Monday, refuse to lower their ransom demand.

Quote:
Thanks for your example of compassion and dedication in reading this chart.

Thanks Pam, it's good of you to say that. I just wish I was more proficient dammit!!

Cheers,
Pete
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Pete

Yes, your characterization of the captor (Jupiter, the planet of religious leaders) in Capricorn, the conservative sign is very apt. And there Jupiter sits in the religious ninth. Good call!

Let me see if I can tackle your question about antisica. I'm not the scholar of antiquity that some are on the list, so I will try to explain it to you as I have seen it work on the charts I have that perfected by antsicia.

An antiscion between one planet and another is an obscure (hidden)
relationship brought about by their simultaneous appearance on the degrees of the Zodiac which represent solar days of the same length. It does not occur, as an aspect does, because of the planet "casting rays."
From everything that I have seen, the planets need to appear simultaneously on the antsicion degrees at the time of the chart--or very close, within one and a half degrees, perhaps-- for the antscion to exist.

Planets apply to one another, but antscion do not apply, because they do not cast rays. A planet can cast an antscion, but an antiscion does not apply to a planet. A planet also does not apply to an antscion, because the two planets must be simultaneously on shared solstice points to be considered antiscia.

Arguing strictly from practice, perfection by application of one planet to an antiscion of another planet would produce a mass of false positive charts. We have had a lot of planets clustered in Capricorn and Sagittarius recently, for example. If we counted applying antiscia to perfect all the charts cast during this time, I'm afraid the results would be way off.

I agree with your statement that antiscia usually represent covert, hidden, or "back door" methods of perfecting the matter.

Here's Lilly on the return of the absent, from the eighth house material we have been discussing:

Quote:
. . . if you are asked, "When he will come home, or when the Querent shall see him, then it is very probable, when both the significators come to conjunction, he will come home and the querent shall be in his company.


The conjunction of Mercury and Jupiter would give us the calendar date December 31 for the return of the absent party. Is there any reason why you would not select this as the date of the quesited's return? If not, why not?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Best,

Pam
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, your characterization of the captor (Jupiter, the planet of religious leaders) in Capricorn, the conservative sign is very apt. And there Jupiter sits in the religious ninth. Good call!


Thanks. I got that right at least!

Quote:
An antiscion between one planet and another is an obscure (hidden)
relationship brought about by their simultaneous appearance on the degrees of the Zodiac which represent solar days of the same length. It does not occur, as an aspect does, because of the planet "casting rays."
From everything that I have seen, the planets need to appear simultaneously on the antsicion degrees at the time of the chart--or very close, within one and a half degrees, perhaps-- for the antscion to exist.


In the past I have pretty much considered antiscion degree in just such a way, ie, (1) the two planets need to be in partile or close alignment and (2) antiscia cast no rays. However neither, by the same token, do the angles or the Part of Fortune, and yet Lilly has allowed planets to apply to these points in some of his horaries hasn't he, so my reasoning is, why can't a planet 7 degrees from an antiscion degree apply to it? Granted, ideally the application should already be in operation at the time of the question yet if if we just use the moiety of Mercury, which is 3.5 degrees, it isn't.

Quote:
Planets apply to one another, but antscion do not apply, because they do not cast rays. A planet can cast an antscion, but an antiscion does not apply to a planet. A planet also does not apply to an antscion, because the two planets must be simultaneously on shared solstice points to be considered antiscia.


Hmmm, see *this* last statement I would question, for reasons that I gave above. That said - Mercury was not in orbs of the conjunction to the antiscion of Jupiter when the question was posed. I think that is the crucial point here: if a planet is within a few degrees of an antiscion and within the moiety of it's orb then the connection has been established and perfection can occur when the conjunction becomes partile. The antiscion is a sensitive point, just like the P.o.F. so logically the same guidelines should apply. Jupiter has a moiety of 4.5 degrees right? Does it's antiscion degree share the same moiety or not?

Quote:
Arguing strictly from practice, perfection by application of one planet to an antiscion of another planet would produce a mass of false positive charts. We have had a lot of planets clustered in Capricorn and Sagittarius recently, for example. If we counted applying antiscia to perfect all the charts cast during this time, I'm afraid the results would be way off.


Wouldn't that depend strictly on the question posed and the rulerships, dignities, etc of the significators in each case? I see your point but look at our example: can we honestly say that we know for sure how the application of Mercury to Jupiter's antiscion will manifest, given that Jupiter has such multiple signification here?

Quote:
The conjunction of Mercury and Jupiter would give us the calendar date December 31 for the return of the absent party. Is there any reason why you would not select this as the date of the quesited's return? If not, why not?


My immediate reaction would be to say because Venus got to Jupiter before Mercury will - on Dec 1st. This would be a form of "frustration", though not by classical definition as Venus didn't overtake Mercury to get to Jupiter. So maybe Venus just represents another influence not related to the querent which has no bearing on the next planet to reach Jupiter: Mercury. What do you think?

Is there any reason why you might consider the upcoming conjunction of Mercury to Jupiter as a possible release date? Do you think Lilly would consider it?

Thanks for your thoughtful responses Pam.

Cheers,
Pete
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1639
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The why not is partly that Jupiter represents, the wife, the captor and the Astrologer, the 31st may well be an action date, but may not bring the action one desires. it is a date to be aware of.

Again I note that jupiter is not in the best shape and represents the astrologer as well as the captor.

Also in the chart you wouldn't count the date mercury conj Jupiter but you would use the timing conventions applied to the original chart to determine whether days weeks months etc would be conveyed by the transits.

Granny
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Pete!

Thanks for your interest in the continuing antscion discussion. I understand what you are saying about Lily using planets applying to points like the ascendant or the midheaven, but I must confess I view antsica in a distinct fashion. I veiw antiscia the way you say you initally did: tight orbs existing at the time of the chart; no application factored in.

May I ask what changed your mind? This is a fine turning point in judging a chart, in my opinion. The antiscia are usually the final straw on my list of techniques to predict the perfection of a matter. When I have no antscia between signifcators or significators casting antiscia to the cusps of important houses, I pretty much see a "no" in the chart. And that is where I draw the line. We can go on splitting hairs and adding more and more outer planets and techniques, etc. but we must allow that sometimes (actually, often), the answer to the question is "no." And I have found these techniques to be very productive, in terms of leading to accurate predictions.

Nice to hear from you! I am examining the chart again to see if I can justify applying Lilly's techniques for the return of the absent person to the reunion of the quesited and his wife. The techniques stipulate "querent and quesited," not "querent and spouse. . ." I'm reminding myself that the querent is the sister of the quesited's wife. . . still considering.

Best,

Pam
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The why not is partly that Jupiter represents, the wife, the captor and the Astrologer, the 31st may well be an action date, but may not bring the action one desires. it is a date to be aware of.


I think that's as much as we can hope for. The signification of Jupiter is quite varied in this chart as you say GS, so it isn't possible to say with any certainty what the Mercury-Jupiter conjunction might manifest.

Quote:
Also in the chart you wouldn't count the date mercury conj Jupiter but you would use the timing conventions applied to the original chart to determine whether days weeks months etc would be conveyed by the transits.


My original primary focus was on the movement of Mercury throughout the whole combustion process and I noted that Mercury leaves combustion in 9 degrees or so. It made me wonder if he might be released in a factor of 9: days/weeks/months. The placement of Mercury on an angle encouraged me to think in terms of weeks rather than months, which takes us to the end of January. The truth is, given all the mixed significations in this chart I'm not keen to give a definitive judgement on it, other than to tell the family that I do not think the man's captors will kill him. Other than that I just watch and wait.
Thanks Granny.

Pete
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
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Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Pam,

Quote:
I view antiscia the way you say you initally did: tight orbs existing at the time of the chart; no application factored in.
May I ask what changed your mind?


I'm not sure that my mind is changed. I'm just asking questions really, not least of which concerns the contact point generated by planetary orb. As you point out, antiscia cast no rays, but the planets do, therefore it would seem logical to me that the moment the limit of a planet's moiety makes contact with an antiscion degree there is "capture" and dialogue between the two bodies. Assuming that the ensuing application is not interrupted the conjunction will eventually perfect. All of this may seem like I'm trying to teach my granny how to suck eggs and I don't mean it to. I realise that antiscia operate on a different level - a more "obsure" level if you will - but I wonder why the orbs have to be so tight. After all, my shadow has the same dimensions as my body.

Quote:
This is a fine turning point in judging a chart, in my opinion. The antiscia are usually the final straw on my list of techniques to predict the perfection of a matter.


Same here. They're the last thing I check.

Quote:
We can go on splitting hairs and adding more and more outer planets and techniques, etc. but we must allow that sometimes (actually, often), the answer to the question is "no." And I have found these techniques to be very productive, in terms of leading to accurate predictions.


I'll bear that in mind Pam. There's no substitute for experience! Smile

Quote:
The techniques stipulate "querent and quesited," not "querent and spouse. . ." I'm reminding myself that the querent is the sister of the quesited's wife. . . still considering.


Actually the querent is the wife's aunt. Here's a quote from my first post:

Quote:
He is shown by Mercury, ruler of the 1st house, because he is the husband of the querent's sister's daughter.


Confusing sometimes isn't it? Smile
Today I received another e-mail update from the wife's cousin in England. She has been keeping me updated on developments. Here are the salient points from that e-mail. I have changed the man's name to protect his identity:

Quote:
Hi Pete
I spoke to my cousin (X's brother in law) he has told me a bit more about the situation. The ransom money started out at Rs 120 million and was negotiated down to Rs 6 million, which is a considerable decrease. the mediator that was negotiating all this was not willing to help the family make any contact with X, like a phone call or even a proper recoding (sic) of his voice, so they were all quite suspicious of him. They now have another person involved instead, as the negotiator ,who is slightly more reliable. They have agreed to pay the money but want to have confirmation first that X is alive and well,(Inshallah) and in their custody.
Also the fact that capturers belong to some religious group was wrong, that was just a cover they used to divert attention.


It would seem that they're not connected with the Taliban after all, if the latest statement is to be believed. So are we back to someone connected with the shady property deal then? How interesting too that the family have managed to talk down the ransom from Rs 120 million to Rs 6 million. It suggests to me that the captors just want money and they started off demanding an artificially high ransom, knowing that they'd still end up with a princely sum at the end of it.
Now if the captors would only provide proof that X is alive and well, it looks like an exchange can be made. I'll keep you posted.

Cheers Pam,
and thanx,
Pete
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, Pete

Thanks for the update; it's gratifying to have this degree of participation in the resolution of a question. I am still wishing all the best for this man and his family!

Here are a couple of responses to questions I had not yet addressed from your posts above.

Quote:
Jupiter has a moiety of 4.5 degrees right? Does it's antiscion degree share the same moiety or not?


I'd say no. There may be others who use the moiety for antscia, but I do not.

Quote:
We have had a lot of planets clustered in Capricorn and Sagittarius recently, for example. If we counted applying antiscia to perfect all the charts cast during this time. . .


Quote:
Wouldn't that depend strictly on the question posed and the rulerships, dignities, etc of the significators in each case?


I agree that the question posed would be a significant factor. If the planets in antiscion do not signify querent/quesited/pertinent house cusps, then the antiscion is moot.

However, I have not really seen much dependence on rulerships, dignities,
reception, etc., in the case of antiscia. It's a lovely thing. The range of focus of the antiscion appears to be narrow, but remains effective despite lack of reception. Perhaps it is part of the covert nature of perfection by antiscion. The parties do not appear to have much reason to cooperate, but somehow they do. I do find the significators' positions in the houses of the chart to be sometimes useful in understanding what motivates their
actions.

I wouldn't worry too much about the multiple signification of Jupiter. The captor is always going to be opposite (seven houses from) the quesited, no matter who asks the question and which house represents the quesited.
And the spouse is always going to be the same significator as the captor. That is not the factor that makes me hesitate to give a date to this event.

Unfortunately, Lilly does not give us a promise of the timing the reunion of spouses by the upcoming conjunction. His promise, rather, is confined to the querent and quesited. And as you have mentioned, the querent is not the spouse. Lilly stipulates to be very careful in determining which house belongs to the querent and which to the quesited in questions of the absent party.

So the problem as I see it is actually the multiple signification of Mercury. Since the quesited is represented by the first house, Mercury is both the querent and the quesited. The Moon could be another significator of the querent, but the timing of her conjunction with Mercury has not been productive; and many signs on the chart have already made it clear that the reunion would not occur within the two week time frame stipulated by the question.

Back to square one, then. I agree with you that we are not able to force the chart to answer the question about the timing of the reunion of the spouse and the quesited. I think we need to be cautious in judging this chart as well because of the Moon in the Via Combusta. I would feel safer in staying within the specific bounds of the question on this one.

Thanks so much for staying in touch with all of us on this!

Best,

Pam
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