25
Hello! I am new to Skycript, and joined primarily because of my recent interest in Horary and Traditional Astrology. However, this thread caught my attention.

Below is the chart of a close relative who was officially diagnosed in 1990/1991 with schizophrenia. She currently resides in an assisted and supervised living facility. I progressed the chart to November 1990, when the diagnosis became official, although it was clear that something was seriously wrong after the birth of her first and only child in November 1988. In the year following Novemer 1990, the situation degenerated so that she could no longer live unsupervised, her husband necessarily divorced her, and she lost custody of her female child.


Image
[/img]

Natal Chart Notes: The Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn are all peregrine. The ruler of the ascendant, Mercury, is ruled by Mars which is in its fall, and squares Uranus almost exactly. Uranus, in turn, forms a close conjunction to the the South Node.

The Ascendant, at zero degrees Virgo, tightly squares natal Venus, ruler of the midheaven. The Moon is applying to the Sun (ruler of the 12th) and combust. Mercury, ruler of the ascendant, forms a tight square to Pluto, found in the 12th house.

An interesting note is that Jupiter, in Gemini and its detriment, rules the 7th house and tightly trines Mars, ruler of the 4th house. Gemini, of course, is ruled by Mercury which in turn rules the ascendant. It is the only trine of any note in the chart. Although her husband was forced to divorce her under the circumstances, he remains to this day interested and involved in her welfare. He has actively assisted in ensuring that she has had safe and appropriate living arrangements, and has encouraged a relationship between her and their daughter. On holidays, and to this day, he often allows her to stay at his house so she can be with their daughter. The husband is still considered a member of our family.

Notes on Progressed to November 1990: When my relative was officially diagnosed with schizophenia, the progressed Moon and progressed Sun formed a grand sqaure with natal Mars and natal Uranus.

I hope that this might be of some intererest to the readers of this thread.

Dlynne

26
Hi Dlynne!

Thanks for the chart! I?m doing a research using Astrodatabank charts and, as I?m a psychologist, I have charts of my clients as well. Do you mind to share the natal data? I coud not see clearly in the chart you posted, the definition is low, so if you please...I?d appreciate it.
Im my experience Mercury is really important and the 12th house as well.
But I have more to say later.

best regards

Clelia


Below is the chart of a close relative who was officially diagnosed in 1990/1991 with schizophrenia. She currently resides in an assisted and supervised living facility. I progressed the chart to November 1990, when the diagnosis became official, although it was clear that something was seriously wrong after the birth of her first and only child in November 1988. In the year following Novemer 1990, the situation degenerated so that she could no longer live unsupervised, her husband necessarily divorced her, and she lost custody of her female child.


Image
[/img]

Natal Chart Notes: The Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn are all peregrine. The ruler of the ascendant, Mercury, is ruled by Mars which is in its fall, and squares Uranus almost exactly. Uranus, in turn, forms a close conjunction to the the South Node.

The Ascendant, at zero degrees Virgo, tightly squares natal Venus, ruler of the midheaven. The Moon is applying to the Sun (ruler of the 12th) and combust. Mercury, ruler of the ascendant, forms a tight square to Pluto, found in the 12th house.

An interesting note is that Jupiter, in Gemini and its detriment, rules the 7th house and tightly trines Mars, ruler of the 4th house. Gemini, of course, is ruled by Mercury which in turn rules the ascendant. It is the only trine of any note in the chart. Although her husband was forced to divorce her under the circumstances, he remains to this day interested and involved in her welfare. He has actively assisted in ensuring that she has had safe and appropriate living arrangements, and has encouraged a relationship between her and their daughter. On holidays, and to this day, he often allows her to stay at his house so she can be with their daughter. The husband is still considered a member of our family.

Notes on Progressed to November 1990: When my relative was officially diagnosed with schizophenia, the progressed Moon and progressed Sun formed a grand sqaure with natal Mars and natal Uranus.

I hope that this might be of some intererest to the readers of this thread.

Dlynne[/quote]
http://www.astrologiahumana.com

27
Hello, Cecilia:

I hope this is more legible:

Image


Birth Data: December 5, 1953, 10:35 pm, Philadelphia, PA.

Also, as a correction to my previous post, I stated that the Mars/Jupiter trine is the only meaningful trine. Actually, it is the only trine using traditional planets.

Dlynne
Last edited by dlynne on Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

28
One of my main gripes with modern astrology is with what moderns call ?signatures.? Signatures are supposed to indicate a common condition or circumstance. To make one up, having the ruler of the first in the 12th is a signature for imprisonment or institutionalization. It?s not, although it can pop up in charts of institutionalized people from time to time. When we are trying to come to grips with personal tragedy, like this one, it is only natural to want to find an answer somewhere to help ease the pain we experience watching innocent others suffer. Such signatures, in my mind don?t exist. This is why astrology ?fails? so many ?scientific? tests and statistical analysis.

However, we need something to spot things that are obvious even if painful, in the life. My first suggestion is that we all go over and find Steven Birchfield?s posts, particularly on the mystery charts threads, to see how to really read a nativity and find answers. Until he pops over here, you?re stuck with me.

I did two things with this chart. I looked to find the significators of the manners to determine ?the wit? of the native as Lilly would put it. It will take too much time to go into depth, but basically we?re looking for the planet or planets (it?s usually, but not always, two planets) that most engage Mercury, the rational mind, and the Moon, the ?irrational? mind. ?Irrational,? in this sense, only means those parts of the mind that are not perfectly logical. It has to do with imagination, the aesthetic sense, etc. Computers are perfectly rational and nothing else, therefore they are ruled by Mercury. In this unfortunate woman?s chart those planets are Mars and Jupiter. So to determine some of the mental characteristics, we need to look there and at Mercury and the Moon.

Her ASC is early Virgo, whose domicile and exaltation ruler is Mercury. Mercury is at the bottom of the chart. If we ignore the outer planets, as I am wont to do now and again, Mercury is void of course assuming he doesn?t turn retrograde. Lilly tells us that a void Moon in a horary means things go hardly on. John Frawley has a neat little explanation of that on his website. He argues that ?hardly? to Lilly meant something different than it does to us. To Lilly it would have meant things go on with difficulty. That seems to fit here. Mercury is also the ruler of her body, but other than the mental illness, her physical condition was not mentioned

http://www.johnfrawley.com/VoC.htm

The Moon is combust in a fire sign. This is a purely personal prejudice, but I?ve never been comfortable with the Moon in fire signs. She is heading deeper into combustion.

Jupiter and Mars are in an applying trine. They can and will work together for good or for ill. Jupiter is in detriment and retrograde and is the most elevated planet. Using Placidus cusps he is also intercepted in the 10th house. Mars is in detriment in Libra as well. These things, in and of themselves, are not a guarantee of mental illness, and cannot be used as any kind of signature, but they are red flags, and therefore we can keep our eye on them as the life unfolds. It should also not have to be mentioned that there is more to this woman than her mental illness, but that is where we will focus our energies.

Finally the MC is almost exactly conjunct the fixed star Algol which is associated with ?losing one?s head,? both literally and metaphorically.

As noted, the diagnosis of the illness is not the same as the onset. I looked briefly at the primary directions for the period 1987 ? 1991 the three year period prior to her diagnosis. I used Regiomontanus directions Key of Placidus. Directions to the angles are the same regardless of method, but the keys can change ?hit? dates.? Feb 20, 1989, the Moon one of our indicators of wit and manner, is directed to the ASC. The Sun the life force is directed to the ASC on July 13, of 1991. Using her 1990 Birthday we see that the ASC has recently changed to Libra indicating a change in the life that occurred a few years prior. I can?t do a thorough primary direction delineation, but we can say that this is an active period in her life.

I did a solar return for 1989 and found that the four planets we are working with are active in that chart. I expected hard aspects and tighter orbs, but this condition is progressive. The return can be progressed or directed and some of the aspects will become tighter and harder. 1989 may be the year the symptoms of the disease first became manifest. Mercury, the significator of the rational mind is angular but in detriment. He makes no major aspects to any planet or angle.

The Moon, Mars, and Jupiter are in a water grand trine by sign. Water, unrestrained, goes in all directions. It is not focused. The Moon is separating from Jupiter and translating light to Saturn, the ruler of the natal 6th house of illness. Mars rules the return 12th of institutions and is strong in his own sign of Scorpio. In horary astrology if the significator of illness is strong, it means the illness is strong. Mars co-rules the return 6th. Admittedly, this is a bit superficial, but more work would reveal a lot more I?m sure.

The 1990 solar return shows a return of the signs of the natal MC ? IC axis, an indication of a significant year. Jupiter and the Sun are in a partile trine and in mutual reception. Jupiter and the Moon are in the 12th house. Mars is in Gemini retrograde in the 10th. He falls almost exactly on the 12th by antiscion. Mercury, the rational mind is all alone.

Moderns would note natal Mercury?s connection to natal Uranus and the south node and Neptune?s besieged condition in the nativity. It is also difficult to miss Pluto within a degree of the IC in the 1990 return.

The excess of soft aspects is at first puzzling, but if we can link these planets to the progress of the disease, it could be viewed as showing the lack of obstruction to its development. It can?t be stopped making the path of the disease easy like a trine is easy.

We can do a lot more with this I?m sure. My purpose is to attempt to show that the nativity unfolds over a lifetime and the initial natal positions should be viewed with an eye to the development of the chart via directions, progression returns etc. No chart is going to contain any combination of planets and angles that will always scream out ?mental illness? or ?greatness? for that matter. We have to work with what we?re given. It is sad that some people are given troubles that we cannot help them with.

Tom





Re: Signs of Mental Illness in Traditional Astrology

29
woodwater wrote: Hi

i dont understand if what ptolomy says below is whether the luminaries are conjunct venus and mars or simply aspecting thses planets can lead to excessive desire. The translation leaves a lot to be desired
According Ptolemy signs of illness of mind derive from the lack ot aspects or a testimony between Moon or Mercury and when these planets don't make any aspect with the Ascendant, especially when they are configurated with malefic planets.

But Ptolemy in the same chapter talks about something else, about sexual behaviour, and there he uses Mars and Venus.
Native sexual behaviour depends on the position of Venus and Mars for sign, quadrand and epycycle phase.
For example an invisible direct Venus means female desires when in female signs and male desires when in male signs. And so on.
Giuseppe Bezza has diagrams for both Mars and Venus so I always use them, it's easier. If I remember well Bezza is a Virgo Sun so he loves schemes and diagrams :)

Margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

Menatl illness

30
Hi Woodwater,

As per vedic astrolgy for birth-details given by you, the horoscope looks very weak, which indicate for both physical and mental weakness. But in Bhava-chart, almost the situation gets differ, also the Jupitor ; karka for knowledge; is strong. Jupitor indicate for strong knowledge desire and willingness for learning. Also conjuction of Jupitor and Ketu indicate for strong desire of learning with some how flickering of mind. It is not easy to keep with words for such type of palnetary positions. Here one more importent thing, which we generally mis, there is no direct influence of malefic planets on Asc. So, in this horoscope, the person can only suffer mental illness or such condition in transit periods.

Thanks

31
Hi Tom and All:
Tom wrote:One of my main gripes with modern astrology is with what moderns call ?signatures.? Signatures are supposed to indicate a common condition or circumstance. To make one up, having the ruler of the first in the 12th is a signature for imprisonment or institutionalization. It?s not, although it can pop up in charts of institutionalized people from time to time. When we are trying to come to grips with personal tragedy, like this one, it is only natural to want to find an answer somewhere to help ease the pain we experience watching innocent others suffer. Such signatures, in my mind don?t exist. This is why astrology ?fails? so many ?scientific? tests and statistical analysis.




I?m trying to work with signatures, and my goal is to find some aspects between planets, if they stay in specific houses, if they aspects or not it?s own sign or the ASC, if the Lots appear in some places more than in others, etc. This kind of analysis takes time and is an arduous job but sometimes give us an idea of what kind of configuration appears frequently in certain disease or behavior.
Signatures do exist but they demand a large study with hundreds of charts to construct an statistical frequency.
I?m studying for example charts of Down?s and I?m intrigued with the number of dignified planets in cadent houses. I?ll have to write it down, at least as a kind of qualitative study, since at this moment the number of persons studied are not enough to construct a large statistical database. But I can at least write what I observed.
Gauguelin for example studied a huge amount of cases, millions of them, and reach some few signatures, humble ones, but very powerful. Some of them: 1-people generally get married with person pertaining to signs that square their own signs,2- there are statistical correlations between planets position in family charts: parents and children, sister and brothers, etc.
For example, in my family we have a powerful Mars signature: My mother is Scorpio, with Sun and Moon in Scorpio and my father is Aries, I?m Aries with Moon in Scorpio, my daughter has Aries Ascending in the same degree I have the Sun, and my son has the MC in Aries.
So, sometimes signatures are nothing more than our astrological common sense, statically measured. But if you are lucky ( and patient and hard working!) you can discover a configuration that is unique in prodigy children, for example. I studied that matter and I got a very meaningful signature ?but I have to write it down, again! <G> I have no time to do all my projects!


My first suggestion is that we all go over and find Steven Birchfield?s posts, particularly on the mystery charts threads, to see how to really read a nativity and find answers. Until he pops over here, you?re stuck with me.


I agree: we need to read the chart in a classical way.
The present chart has not the obvious flags of mental disturb and is not claiming ?I?m a schizophrenic" . I have seen many persons having one or two debilitated planets, as are Jupiter and Mars in the present chart, with no mental problems, at all.
The important thing is to immerse in the chart analysis to find out what happens.
I?m seeing that the ruler and almuten of the ASC is Mercury and Mercury is the Almutem Figuris , as well, the ruler of all the chart.
The condition of Mercury is really peculiar.

Mercury is angular in the 4th...but it is out of sect ( masculine oriental planet, rising before the Sun and appearing under the earth), fall amiss to the ASC and does not look at its own sign. It has power to act, though, but it is not able to give any testimony of its behavior or" thoughts" to the ASC, the person. Being out of sect it plays against the native. Besides that, it?s in the same sign of Saturn, the 4th sign. In Hellenist astrology they would be considered in conjunction, in the 4th house, by whole signs.
In my point of view this is the biggest testimony in favor of a mental problem of the native, and it is configured to the kind of thing psychologist call unconscious behavior.
We don?t have any planet making aspect with Mercury, so it?s alone with its ideas, not related with any aspects of the chart. That is an important sign of mental splitting between the native thinking being divorced of all the mundane aspects of life.
About the MC, I liked your point: it?s in conjunction with Algol. And the MC has to do with " praxis", behavior.
It?s interesting also to note that the ruler of the 12th is in the 4th, meaning that the home the native lives is a prison. Psychotic institutionalized persons used to have a link between the 4th and the 12th.
I can?t talk about mental illnesses signatures, because I didn?t study them with a method yet, but I will.
Generally speaking I have seen schizophrenic or mental disturbed cases having the Moon in Mercury?s signs, angular in the 7th or in the 4th or cadent in the 12th. Saturn and Mars are also present in the configuration.
In the present case the Moon is angular and combust, but in the second sign of the 4th.

best regards

Clelia


http://www.astrologiahumana.com

32
Hi,

Just to clarify my point about chart signatures. I'm talking about things like, "Saturn retrograde means feelings of inferiority due to an absent, weak or emotionally distant father." No it doesn't. I'm sure that is true in some cases but it is also true that most people experience their fathers as emotionally distant because that's the way men are and all of us have feelings of inferiority. I don't think Jones' patterns are particularly accurate either. I also am suspicious of all these patterns like mystic rectangles, kites, etc.

Now Gauquelin did provide us with some insight and information, but even if we view the planets nears angles as chart signatures for profession we are going to be severely disappointed with the results. Gauquelin's studies beat chance. But in reality the percentage and/or military men in all the charts with Mars near an angle wasn't too high. It was about 30% if I recall. Yes that beats chance, but it is useless as a chart signature. First off it only applied to the top of the professions - not the rest of the group. So if you looked at 1000 mystery charts all of whom were top flight athletes, you'd find that about 300 of them had Mars near an angle. If you saw 10,000 charts taken at random, and 1% of them were top flight athletes, you'd see an awful lot of Mars rising and have no way to know, using this signature, which ones were top athletes. I've concluded that while interesting and worthwhile research, Gauquelin's work is of no practical value to the practicing astrologer precisely because chart signatures don't work all that well.

Your observation regarding Mercury and people with Downs syndrome is interesting, but if if the numbers don't beat chance, it is only a red flag. Red Flag's are fine, but they aren't what moderns call chart signatures. The same is true for Gauqelin's work. If I see Mars on a an angle I'd ask, are you competitive? Are you aggressive? Does a career in athletics or the military seem of interest or do you just like to go to bars, get drunk, and get into fights? Mars on the ASC can be brave, rash, competitive, or argumentative. It signifies nothing precisely the same in every chart.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Tom

33
Tom:

Thank you for the very interesting and detailed comment on the chart I posted for my relative with schizophrenia. I was especially caught with your observation that her midheaven conjuncts the malific star algol. I am not accustomed to paying attention to fixed stars, but I certainly will in the future.

I agree that Algol conjuncting her midheaven, and opposing natal mercury (ruler of the ascendant), which is found at the bottom of the chart, is significant. If one is inclined to look at the outer planets, Pluto in the 12th house squares both the MC and Mercury almost exactly.

In researching algol, I notice that Elsbeth Ebertin associates this star with bad teeth. When the native was a young woman, she had a severe problem with her teeth and many of them had to be pulled and replaced with false teeth. My recollection is that the root problem was caused by a lung infection and the medication she needed for that.

Robson associates the star, if culminating, with murder, prone to murder and causing mischief, as well as losing one's head. For a few years, the native was dangerous to herself and to others, and this is what resulted in the institutionalization.

Her physical body today is not good, as for years she has been on extreme drugs developed for extreme mental disorders. Recently, she developed diabetes.

Before the onset of the mental illness, the native was a beautiful, young woman who loved life and had a mischievous sense of humor. It is indeed a tragic story.

34
Hi Tom:
Tom wrote:Hi,

Just to clarify my point about chart signatures. I'm talking about things like, "Saturn retrograde means feelings of inferiority due to an absent, weak or emotionally distant father." No it doesn't. I'm sure that is true in some cases but it is also true that most people experience their fathers as emotionally distant because that's the way men are and all of us have feelings of inferiority. I don't think Jones' patterns are particularly accurate either. I also am suspicious of all these patterns like mystic rectangles, kites, etc.


I agree with you at the point we can?t generalize.
But, and it?s interesting, Ptolemy said a very intriguing thing which inclined me to cast a lot of charts of " monstrous" births.
In Tetrabiblos book 3, Chapter 9, he says:
"9.Concerning Monsters
The account of monsters is not foreign to the present examination; for, first, in such cases the lights are mostly found to be in decline or unconnected to the Horoskopos, while the pivots are grasped separately by the malefics"
Robert Schmidt, the translator, says in a footnote at this point:
"" dialanbano". We have not encountered this word in an astrological context. Of the fundamental meaning of this verb, there seem to three that could apply to this astrological context.1) "To take or receive as a separate portion", in which case there may be a reference to the malefics ruling the pivots; however, the planets ruling the lights and the Horoskopos are brought in later in a more specific condition, so I do not think they are intended here.2) " To seize upon separately" , as when one person grasps the hands and another the feet of someone, in which case themalefics may be understood to occupy the pivots. 3) " To separate", in which case the malefics may be thought to separe the pivots from each other( perhaps by both occupying a position between them), or separate them individually( by occupying them separatly)Hephaisto would seem to favor this possibility since he has the verb " diago" here instead , meaning " to force apart". This could make sense since the pivots might be likened to joints, and forcing the joint apart might result in a monstrous appearance"

That caught my eye and I cast and studied 50 charts of monstrous births to see if this kind of design appeared. And the answer was yes, it appeared: parts of the chart were joined together making an opposition to the others, sometime in the pivots, sometime not.
The appearance of the chart was of being grasped separately.
It was not a simple opposition aspect, but groups of planets opposing to other ones.

In a modern sense I don?t ?believe" in using rectangles, or crosses, or special figures, but the above case deserves more investigation.
Now Gauquelin did provide us with some insight and information, but even if we view the planets nears angles as chart signatures for profession we are going to be severely disappointed with the results. Gauquelin's studies beat chance. But in reality the percentage and/or military men in all the charts with Mars near an angle wasn't too high. It was about 30% if I recall. Yes that beats chance, but it is useless as a chart signature.


Remember that Guaguelin?s study on sports was the one which generates more debates. Anyway, his studies when replicated in several countries and by several authors gave the same results.
I admire the Guaguelins as extremely serious and respectable researchers.
The interesting thing is that Cartesian scholars can?t accept astrology as a science, so they tried to discredit Guaguelin?s study...and now the same occur with astrologers, I don?t know why! Doing researches in astrology is a tough activity, not lucrative and a solitary one. Universities will not pay for your job as well, a job that will take a life. May be that is the answer: nobody want to believe it would be useful to study during all life a subject which can bring poor results comparing to the effort. It?s like to catch fish with a fish-net and get only one. But doing statistical research in astrology is a valid target, in my point of view.


Your observation regarding Mercury and people with Downs syndrome is interesting, but if if the numbers don't beat chance, it is only a red flag. Red Flag's are fine, but they aren't what moderns call chart signatures.


As a matter of fact they are more than red flags, in that specific case, since I have not see in any chart a Mercury in Virgo or Gemini, neither an emphasis in the axis of the 3rd and the 9th. If you have 15 cases and all of them give the same answer, it?s is a valid statistical result. But I have to review the study, it is not fresh in my mind.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.


Thank you for the discussion!

Clelia
http://www.astrologiahumana.com