73 by margherita MarkC wrote:Hi Margherita, I take it this information for Bezza's students and not on the basic website? I took a look but couldn't see anything. Mark Sirio, Saturno e Marte nel'eclissi precedente il maremoto (Sirius, Saturn and Mars in the preceding eclipse from tsunami) http://www.cieloeterra.it/articoli.tsunami/tsunami.html you should consider Figura 2. The grey area is where Saturn is in the fourth house. Margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:26 am
74 by Mark Thanks Margherita, I never have got round to looking at Astro*Graphy Maps and other types of astrolocality so perhaps its time. I was aware these techniques were used natally but hadn't really considered them for mundane work. Yet another topic to study on my astrological 'to do ' list. Mark As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:00 pm
75 by Andrew Bevan MarkC wrote:According to Lilly the following places come under the influence of Scorpio: Quote: KINGDOMS, COUNTRIES, CITIES. North part of Bavaria, the Woddy part of Norway, Barbary, the Kingdom of Fez, Catalonia in Spain, Valentia, Urbine and Forum Julit in Italy, Vienna, Messina in Italy, Gaum, Frankenford upon Odor. From the Woddy part of Norway, I previously said I think that Norway will win this years Eurovision Song Contest and that this may be associated with the Comet Lulin. There are other inovative projects in process in Norway at present but I do think it will be easier to get a better view of these in retrospect. http://www.astronor.com Quote Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:53 pm
76 by Mark I have been reading the latest issue of The Tradition. Its absolutely loaded with 116 pages of excellent astrological discussion. What a bargain at only 5 Euro! It includes an article on Comet Lulin by the Portugese traditional astrologer Luis Ribeiro. I was glad to see he adopts the traditional approach in terms of only considering a comet that becomes naked eye visible: we can judge a comet only when it becomes visible to the naked eye, and thus enters our sphere of perception. Nowadays there are dozens of comets which can be detected by telescope , but never become visible to the naked eye, and thus are useless in astrological terms. We clearly see eye-to eye on this! However, Ribeiro takes a slightly different stance from the one Margherita has recommended of always using the pre-lunation chart. Ribeiro states: Initially, we must ascertain the causes of 'ignition' that is the astrological context in which the comet comes into being.'' Noting that the Comet has first been observed for the first time on February 6th Ribeiro suggests there were two significant events preceding this: the eclipse of 26/01/09 and the Mercury-Mars conjunction at 23 Capricorn the same day. He is therefore willing to use conjunctions of other planets as well as lunations as the astrological 'ignition' for a Comet. However, Ribeiro doesn't delineate charts for either of these events. Instead he presents a chart for the first reported naked eye observations of the comet around sunrise on 06/02/09. The exact timing and location is of course ambiguous so the houses are irrelevent. However, The chart does the feature the Moon in its very last degrees in Gemini with Comet itself at 15 Scorpio. The Moon in this chart separates from a square to Saturn and applies to a square of Venus ( debilitated in Aries) suggesting to Ribeiro ''disagreeable or uneasy accords.'' He notes Lulin appeared in the sign of Scorpio and conjioned the malefic star Zuben-el-Genubi of the nature of Mars and Saturn. Ribeiro notes that the Comet is probably of the nature of Mercury for several reasons: 1 The Mercury-Mars conjunction preceding the Comet's appearance. 2 The Moon in Gemini when the Comet appeared 3 Most importantly the colour of the Comet. Ribeiro states: 'As it is small and presents a bluish-green colour it is probably of the nature of mercury-'The fifth , Ceruleus , of blew, or azure colour, appropriate to Mercury' (Astrology Restored,William Ramesey, 1653) However, the thing I found most revealing in the article was Ribeiro's plotting of the comet movement by declination to determine where it might influence most in the world. On this point Ribeiro states: 'Its declination ranged from approximately 15S to 18N , thus in geographical terms its effects will have more emphasis on the equatorial and tropical areas of the planet which have around the same value of latitude. This would suggest Africa ( particularly the North) as the place where its effects will be strongly felt and because it is an area ruled by Scorpio and the rest of the water triplicity which also falls within these latitude values' I thought this was an especially interesting point. Ribeiro sources this technique from William Lilly, in England's Prophetical Merlin, in 1644 and a text from a Portugese astrologer on comets called Antonio Najera published in 1619. The article is really worth reading in full as is The Tradition itself. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sat Mar 14, 2009 4:11 am
77 by margherita MarkC wrote: I thought this was an especially interesting point. Ribeiro sources this technique from William Lilly, in England's Prophetical Merlin, in 1644 and a text from a Portugese astrologer on comets called Antonio Najera published in 1619. I shall still buy the journal. I'm sure it's worthy- I would especially read Chris Brennan, Sue Ward and Oscar Hofmann. Anyway I should say that Lilly there is quoting Ptolemy, Bonatti and Cardano, so I'm sure he cannot say differently from what Cardano says and Ptolemy says and all the rest of authors say about the comet. And the same about the cerulean color because we have seen it passed through all the astrological literature from hellenist Egypt to XVII century. As usually I will repeat my only astrological theory: that in traditional astrology it is very difficult to find a source saying a different thing. I have just the doubt about Mercury-Mars. Why it should be influential for the comet? I understand Jupiter-Saturn, they have a long tradition but Mercury-Mars cannot me think about anything, especially if we have not a chart to read with proper angles. Inputs? Margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Sat Mar 14, 2009 5:01 pm
Comet Lulin & Victorian Bushfires 78 by SusanA Thank you all for an interesting and well-informed discussion about Comet Lulin and what it might signify here on planet Earth. What leaps out at me, here in New Zealand, is that Lulin first became visible to the naked eye a day before the devastating bushfires erupted in Victoria, Australia - this from Wkipedia: Hundreds of fires began around the state on the 7th of February, 2009, during what was described as "the worst bushfire conditions in Australia's history". Melbourne recorded its highest temperature ever at 46.4?C. The current death toll is at 210, most of the deaths occurring in Kinglake, Marysville and the surrounding areas, northeast of Melbourne. West Gippsland, Bendigo, Beechworth and other areas were also affected. 2,273 houses were destroyed and 7,562 people displaced. These events have been the focus of considerable media coverage (as well as human concern & sympathy) in Australia, and NZ, over the past month, and there is an ongoing investigation into why these fires were so exceptionally fast & ferocious. Fast & ferocious fires = Mercury/Mars, surely! Quote Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:27 am
Re: Comet Lulin & Victorian Bushfires 79 by margherita SusanA wrote:. What leaps out at me, here in New Zealand, is that Lulin first became visible to the naked eye a day before the devastating bushfires erupted in Victoria, Australia It makes sense. Moreover comets are always fiery. And what about the eclipse of the 26th January? It was visible from Australia and it's quite near the Ascendant. So according Ptolemy it will give its effects in the first 4 months. But in this case I don't think it's Mars-Mercury. Mars is oriental so it's not very dry and Mercury is in its matutine heliacal rising so it's cold and moist. Ayway this is just my opinion, Margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:23 am
80 by SusanA Ah, thank you for reminding me about the eclipse, Margherita - and 26 January happens to be Australia's national day... Quote Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:48 am
81 by Mark Anyway I should say that Lilly there is quoting Ptolemy, Bonatti and Cardano, so I'm sure he cannot say differently from what Cardano says and Ptolemy says and all the rest of authors say about the comet. Hi Margherita, Quite so. I simply mentioned the sources that Ribeiro himself quotes in his references. I wasnt suggesting these were the only sources in the tradition! And the same about the cerulean color because we have seen it passed through all the astrological literature from hellenist Egypt to XVII century. Certainly I have seen it in the Pseudo-Ptolemy on your blog and in Bonatti. However, the only hellenistic astrological source I am aware of mentioning colour of comets is Hephaistio of Thebes. Do you know of others? I would be interested if you do. One thing I have noticed is that there is some confusion here in the English translations since the 1994 Project Hindsight translation of Hephaistio of Thebes by Robert Schmidt translates the text as follows: The Sword Fish, belonging to the Star of Hermes, appears mightly and rather sallow, having oval rays around it. Hephaistio of Thebes, Apotelesmatics , Book I p 59, translated by Robert Schmidt, 1994, Project Hindsight, Greek track, Volume VI In English 'sallow' can mean either yellowish or clear in colour but not green/blue. However, on his blog Anton Grigoryev translates the colour of the comet quite differently: 'The Sword-like belongs to Hermes, and appears strong and green, and has oblong rays around itself.' I dont what the source of this translation is. Grigoryev shows the original Greek text so i dont know if he is translating the Greek himself or not. I am thinking of contacting Chris Brennan to see if he can clarify this ambiguity. I certainly cannot comment on whether Schmidt's or Grigoryev's translation of Hephaistio is at fault here. Later sources, such as Bonatti or Pseudo Ptolemy certainly do discuss blue or azure like William Ramesey so either Schmidt has made an error or the source medieval texts like Bonatti and Pseudo-Ptolemy were relying on is completely different? As usually I will repeat my only astrological theory: that in traditional astrology it is very difficult to find a source saying a different thing. That is no doubt true. It was an innovation for me however as I hadn't noticed this point in other sources! I agree Lilly will have taken this idea from earlier sources. I have just the doubt about Mercury-Mars. Why it should be influential for the comet? I understand Jupiter-Saturn, they have a long tradition but Mercury-Mars cannot me think about anything, especially if we have not a chart to read with proper angles. Yes I rather agree. Perhaps because this fell on exact same day as the Eclipse? I was surprised he did not choose to delineate the eclipse chart. Still, I would agree with Ribeiro that the first appearance of the comet is of astrological relevance. From this we know the comet appeared with the moon at the very end of Gemini and near the fixed malefic star Zuben-el-Genubi at 15 Scorpio. I do think that is all very useful information. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:58 pm
82 by margherita MarkC wrote: Certainly I have seen it in the Pseudo-Ptolemy on your blog and in Bonatti. However, the only hellenistic astrological source I am aware of mentioning colour of comets is Hephaistio of Thebes. Do you know of others? I would be interested if you do. This is Plinius the Elder: CHAP. 22. (24.)--OR THE STARS WHICH APPEAR SUDDENLY, OR OF COMETS. A few things still remain to be said concerning the world; for stars are suddenly formed in the heavens themselves; of these there are various kinds. (25.) The Greeks name these stars comets ; we name them Crinit?, as if shaggy with bloody locks, and surrounded with bristles like hair. Those stars, which have a mane hanging down from their lower part, like a long beard, are named Pogoni?. Those that are named Aconti? vibrate like a dart with a very quick motion. It was one of this kind which the Emperor Titus described in his very excellent poem, as having been seen in his fifth consulship; and this was the last of these bodies which has been observed. When they are short and pointed they are named Xiphi?; these are the pale kind; they shine like a sword and are without any rays; while we name those Discei , which, being of an amber colour, in conformity with their name, emit a few rays from their margin only. A kind named Pitheus exhibits the figure of a cask, appearing convex and emitting a smoky light. The kind named Cerastias has the appearance of a horn; it is like the one which was visible when the Greeks fought at Salamis. Lampadias is like a burning torch; Hippias is like a horse's mane; it has a very rapid motion, like a circle revolving on itself. There is also a white comet, with silver hair, so brilliant that it can scarcely be looked at, exhibiting, as it were, the aspect of the Deity in a human form. There are some also that are shaggy, having the appearance of a fleece, surrounded by a kind of crown. There was one, where the appearance of a mane was changed into that of a spear; it happened in the 109th olympiad, in the 398th year of the City . The shortest time during which any one of them has been observed to be visible is 7 days, the longest 180 days. And Plinius takes from Aristotle.... One thing I have noticed is that there is some confusion here in the English translations since the 1994 Project Hindsight translation of Hephaistio of Thebes by Robert Schmidt translates the text as follows: The Sword Fish, belonging to the Star of Hermes, appears mightly and rather sallow, having oval rays around it. However, on his blog Anton Grigoryev translates the colour of the comet quite differently: 'The Sword-like belongs to Hermes, and appears strong and green, and has oblong rays around itself.' I certainly cannot comment on whether Schmidt's or Grigoryev's translation of Hephaistio is at fault here. Consider that I have a little of experience with Anton's translation from Latin (which surely it is not like Greek) and that Plinius writes "quae sunt omnium pallidissimae et quodam gladii nitore ac sine ullis radiis," I would bet on Schidmt, sallow is like pale, true? Later sources, such as Bonatti or Pseudo Ptolemy certainly do discuss blue or azure like William Ramesey so either Schmidt has made an error or the source medieval texts like Bonatti and Pseudo-Ptolemy were relying on is completely different? Maybe it's just a variation, a lot of authors repeated this list. And obviously everybody made his own amendment. Moreover ceruleus is not blue, it means sky coloured, it's a very light colour. That is no doubt true. It was an innovation for me however as I hadn't noticed this point in other sources! I agree Lilly will have taken this idea from earlier sources. Lilly always takes from Ptolemy. you will see soon... Yes I rather agree. Perhaps because this fell on the same day as the pre-lunation he gave it extra emphasis? Well I never saw something like that, anyway Ribeiro surely has its sources. Margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:00 pm
83 by Mark Hi Margherita, I do have the text by Pliny the Elder from his Natural History and was aware of the section you quoted. Still its a good text to share on the thread. Note I used the word astrological source for the hellenistic approach to Comets. Pliny the Elder makes clear in his text he doesn't believe in astrology and criticises the notion that a person's destiny can be reflected in their time of birth. However, comets and stars for weather fore-casting appear an exception in the text! While this clearly points to an ancient tradition of comet delineation I am not sure this is the direct source for later medieval astrologers. Do you think it is? As you suggest it all leads us back to Arisitotle. I must study his "Meteorologica' which sets out his view of comets. According to Aristotle, comets were produced by gases that rose into the upper atmosphere where they caught fire, apparently being ignited by sparks generated by the motion of the heavens around the Earth. If the gases burned quickly, they produced the sudden flash of a shooting star. If they burned slowly, a comet was the result. This theory seems quite remarkable to us today but was consistent with Aristotle's cosmology. In Aristotle?s cosmology, the Earth was stationary at the centre of the Universe, and all celestial bodies ? the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars ?revolved around the Earth on spheres of pure crystal. Nothing could be allowed to violate the perfection of the heavens, so that any temporary blemish such as a comet had to be assigned to the atmosphere. Hence Aristotle does not discuss comets in his astronomical work 'On the Heavens' and instead discusses them in his text discussing Meteorological phenomena. Ptolemy adopted this view too and therefore leaves out discussion of comets in his astronomical epic the Almagest and restricts discussion of comets to his astrological text The Tetrabiblos. Although classical writers such as Seneca did question the view of Aristotle, by suggesting comets might have orbits like the planets, it was not really until Tycho Brahe wrote on the Nova of 1572 that the idea of celestial spheres and the immutability of the fixed stars began to be rigourously challenged. Consider that I have a little of experience with Anton's translation from Latin (which surely it is not like Greek) and that Plinius writes "quae sunt omnium pallidissimae et quodam gladii nitore ac sine ullis radiis," I would bet on Schidmt, sallow is like pale, true? Its ambiguous. Sallow can be translated as either yellowish or simply pale/clear. Thats hardly green though? I find it somewhat frustrating that Schmidt chose to use such a vague English word in his translation. No such ambiguity for Anton Grigoryev who states the translation as simply green. I cannot help wondering if Grigoryev is stretching the translation to make it fit Comet Lulin. As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly Quote Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:50 pm
84 by margherita MarkC wrote:Hi Margherita, While this clearly points to an ancient tradition of comet delineation I am not sure this is the direct source for later medieval astrologers. Do you think it is? As you suggest it all leads us back to Arisitotle. I must study his "Meteorologica' which sets out his view of comets. Well, Plinius was a very influential source for comets if Hevelius in his book about comets in 1668 could use almost the same classification. And I'm not sure there was a distinction between astrological and not astrological literature. See Brahe for example... Although classical writers such as Seneca did question the view of Aristotle it was not really until Tycho Brahe wrote on the Nova of 1572 that the idea of celestial spheres and the immutability of the fixed stars began to be rigourously challenged. Yes, I agree. But even if Brahe destroyed Aristotelian cosmos, in the same pages he could use Ptolemy sizigy for his forecasts. It's strange, if you think a little. And I'm inquiring about the comet colour. In every case I don't think it's a discrepancy..... I hate to say this, but green could be even fresh buds, not just deep green. anyway i'm waiting my friend reply, she has a degree in Ancient Literature and she is a traditional astrologer. Something she could surely say. She found even impossible words.... I will update you. Margherita Traditional astrology at http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com Quote Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:56 pm