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The Current Saturn/Uranus Opposition...
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trevor
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Posted: Sun May 03, 2009 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
geodorn wrote:
I do not deny that astrological configurations may affect non-material events, such as moods, etc, but that the techniques provided by the modern astrology are, in my humble, of not much use for any reasonably serious study.


My moods and yours are very ‘material’. I can change mine by taking certain drugs, going out into the sunshine, eating Ice cream, etc. You could ask a woman about her menstrual cycle.

Quote:
As an exercise, why don’t you try devising a test to verify Green’s explanation of Diana’s Mars?


Psychological astrology, or aspects of it, is possible to assess to some extent. However there are numerous variables that might need considering for example (top of me head) Confirmation bias, Subjective validation, Selective memory, Illusory correlation, Forer effect,............. Rudolf Smit’s site used to have a range of examples, from Correlation magazine and elsewhere, of previous attempts to ‘prove’ something. Also in Gary Phillipson’s Year Zero book there’s a lot of interesting chatter as to what has gone on in this area before. After ploughing my way through a lot of this data I gained the impression that both the ‘scientists’ and astrologers (self-defined) involved weren’t taking it very seriously.

Some time ago I designed an experiment. This involved 30 children under the age of 6 (need to rule out people behaving in ways that they think their sun sign warrants, although the parents may have already effected this) being observed behind a series of one-way mirrors over the course of 4 weeks (around 120hrs). At the end of this period astrologers are given 5 possible charts (but no strong elemental or sign similarity) for each child spanning a 3mth period (to rule out visual clues) and asked to identify the correct one. Over the 4 weeks the children would have been seen in a range of situations so responses to various 'stimuli' can be observed, plus more ‘events’ have transpired. If the astrologers do better than could be expected by chance then the experiment would need to be replicated.

It's imperative the children don't know they are being watched so the practical design of the study requires a lot of work, for example hidden microphones. The parents need to consent to the birth data being released. The correct data needs to exist in the first place (a real problem). The school/education authorities need to be brought on board.

Then you need to find the astrologers. Most aren't interested and there’s not many with the expertise required here (as far as I know).

Olivia mentioned the response(s) to Gauquelin’s studies earlier
http://cura.free.fr/xv/14starbb.html
The psychological/psychiatric/pharmaceutical establishments, and the religious lobbies in due course, will get involved. They aren’t going to ‘allow’ any positive evidence for astrology to come out without a rumpus. If the results are impressive years will be spent trying to find out how the astrologers did it without using astrology!

To cut a long story short I approached various schools/educational authorities ran into numerous bureaucratic/ethical hurdles and eventually gave up. Today I’m very ambiguous about it, wondering how useful it would be if any ‘harder’ evidence arose in support of astrological ideas.

To answer your question about Mars then yes if one of the children seemed to have this compromised assertiveness then that might be a clue as to which chart is correct. Also you might be keeping an eye out for deviousness and manipulativeness, quite noticeable in Diana, when it’s in the 8th/Scorpio and/or ‘weak’ in the chart.

Quote:
And what with those hefty words “mutation and repolarization”? What are they about?


Again you need to ask someone else about Rudhyar, it's a bit otherworldly for my palette. However I don't imagine you will get very far with it unless you spend a fair bit of time looking into Theosophy and Transpersonal/Humanistic Psychology as it's referring to a way of thinking, and language, peculiar to these perspectives.
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geodorn



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 23
Location: USA

Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor,
Quote:
My moods and yours are very ‘material’.

I never expected to see such a... um... 'materialistic' view here. I don't want to go into a discussion of how and what, let me just say I do not agree with it for a number of reasons. I may be wrong, of course Smile it's probably a question of semantics too.

Quote:
Olivia mentioned the response(s) to Gauquelin’s studies earlier
http://cura.free.fr/xv/14starbb.html
The psychological/psychiatric/pharmaceutical establishments, and the religious lobbies in due course, will get involved. They aren’t going to ‘allow’ any positive evidence for astrology to come out without a rumpus. If the results are impressive years will be spent trying to find out how the astrologers did it without using astrology!

so? nothing is easy, even in the hardcore science. However, it's easy and very convenient to blame the "other side". I am just sorry to see that all this pretense to be "scientific" does nothing but turn away reasonable people from treating astrology with any respect, mostly because these attempts are so arrogant, yet sloppy to the point of being ridiculous.

Quote:
Today I’m very ambiguous about it, wondering how useful it would be if any ‘harder’ evidence arose in support of astrological ideas.


Usefulness is a very good question. I do not think it will be very useful in the "material" sense and that is why I doubt there will be much interest (but there will be much opposition, as Olivia pointed out) to support it. Some of it can be useful even for materialists, but that's what makes this scary too.
Yet, I think it would be extremely useful to show people that there is more to life than the prevailing reductionism and astrology can probably help thre But this would require a huge shift from the current philosophy of life, including science and religion, that, no, it's not going to be easy at all. Still, if we continue with the current materialistic paradigm, we will either blow ourselves and the whole planet to bits or make it uninhabitable.

Quote:
To answer your question about Mars then yes if one of the children seemed to have this compromised assertiveness then that might be a clue as to which chart is correct. Also you might be keeping an eye out for deviousness and manipulativeness, quite noticeable in Diana, when it’s in the 8th/Scorpio and/or ‘weak’ in the chart.


my point was that practically everybody has this "compromised assertiveness", especially in their early years.

Quote:
Again you need to ask someone else about Rudhyar, it's a bit otherworldly for my palette. However I don't imagine you will get very far with it unless you spend a fair bit of time looking into Theosophy and Transpersonal/Humanistic Psychology as it's referring to a way of thinking, and language, peculiar to these perspectives.

Trevor, I don't need to dive into Theosophy or Astrophysics or whatever to guess that two fancy words inserted into a pretty banal, but funny sentence are there only to impress the reader (just check that sentence without those words, the meaning will not change). Though I did have a lough when I read that passage from Rudhyar, thanks Cool
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trevor
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Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I never expected to see such a... um... 'materialistic' view here. I don't want to go into a discussion of how and what, let me just say I do not agree with it for a number of reasons. I may be wrong, of course it's probably a question of semantics too.


Perhaps you need to talk to a neuroscientist, i think they could play with your synapses and change your mood quite easily.

Astrology and the materialistic paradigm are quite compatible in my view, although we would need to define 'astrology' first.

Quote:
so? nothing is easy, even in the hardcore science. However, it's easy and very convenient to blame the "other side". I am just sorry to see that all this pretense to be "scientific" does nothing but turn away reasonable people from treating astrology with any respect, mostly because these attempts are so arrogant, yet sloppy to the point of being ridiculous.


are you saying gauquelin 'turned people away'?

Quote:
Usefulness is a very good question. I do not think it will be very useful in the "material" sense and that is why I doubt there will be much interest (but there will be much opposition, as Olivia pointed out) to support it. Some of it can be useful even for materialists, but that's what makes this scary too.
Yet, I think it would be extremely useful to show people that there is more to life than the prevailing reductionism and astrology can probably help thre But this would require a huge shift from the current philosophy of life, including science and religion, that, no, it's not going to be easy at all. Still, if we continue with the current materialistic paradigm, we will either blow ourselves and the whole planet to bits or make it uninhabitable. Usefulness is a very good question. I do not think it will be very useful in the "material" sense and that is why I doubt there will be much interest (but there will be much opposition, as Olivia pointed out) to support it. Some of it can be useful even for materialists, but that's what makes this scary too.
Yet, I think it would be extremely useful to show people that there is more to life than the prevailing reductionism and astrology can probably help thre But this would require a huge shift from the current philosophy of life, including science and religion, that, no, it's not going to be easy at all. Still, if we continue with the current materialistic paradigm, we will either blow ourselves and the whole planet to bits or make it uninhabitable.


what's your alternative to the materialistic paradigm? - holism?

Quote:
my point was that practically everybody has this "compromised assertiveness", especially in their early years.


Co-incidentally i used to teach an 'assertiveness' class, and all the participants had a compromised assertion, as it were. However each was different in this respect which is what astrology is concerned with, isn't it? Identifying the subtle differences and creating a narrative as to why from the chart.

Quote:
Trevor, I don't need to dive into Theosophy or Astrophysics or whatever to guess that two fancy words inserted into a pretty banal, but funny sentence are there only to impress the reader (just check that sentence without those words, the meaning will not change). Though I did have a lough when I read that passage from Rudhyar, thanks


As you wish, but trying to seperate language from thinking seems unadvisable. But it may be he had a pretentious bent, i dunno?
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geodorn



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 23
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trevor, I begin to doubt our discussion is of much interests to others here. I also have a feeling you are trolling me, but I am fine with that Smile

Quote:
Perhaps you need to talk to a neuroscientist, i think they could play with your synapses and change your mood quite easily.

If I tell you I personally know a few, one is a young, yet a Really Big Star, HHMI investigator, would it help? They work on mice and rats. Which is fine, we do share some basic biochemical mechanisms, receptors, etc. And yes, I am aware of things different chemicals can do to you. Still, somebody said that the rabbis virus "knows" more about human nervous system than all neurobiologists combined. I wonder why Cool

Quote:
Astrology and the materialistic paradigm are quite compatible in my view

this is fine, but my advise to anybody who wants to defend this thesis in public would be: please do not attempt this until you get at least a PhD in a hard science field at one of the reputable schools.

Quote:
are you saying gauquelin 'turned people away'?

Oh, no. But the vast majority is just an easy pray for the James Randy & Co circus. See the advice above.

Quote:
what's your alternative to the materialistic paradigm? - holism?

for the sake of it, why not? Smile

Quote:
Co-incidentally i used to teach an 'assertiveness' class, and all the participants had a compromised assertion, as it were. However each was different in this respect which is what astrology is concerned with, isn't it? Identifying the subtle differences and creating a narrative as to why from the chart.

I am afraid that is exactly what modern astrology does (reverse-engineered): take this pill, but don't forget: this half is for your headache and this half is for your stomach, don't mix them up! Smile

Quote:
As you wish, but trying to seperate language from thinking seems unadvisable.

I thought this is exactly what Rudhyar was attempting in that passage. Anyway, maybe someday the meaning of what he said will dawn on me. For now I am more comfortable even with Crowley's 4=5 (or whatever he had there).

cheers Smile
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trevor
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Trevor, I begin to doubt our discussion is of much interests to others here. I also have a feeling you are trolling me, but I am fine with that


I'm not 'consciously' trolling if that's any consolation.

Quote:
this is fine, but my advise to anybody who wants to defend this thesis in public would be: please do not attempt this until you get at least a PhD in a hard science field at one of the reputable schools.


I'd agree with this but change the has a Phd to have the ability to have one. The cleverest chap I ever met left school at 15 but wouldn't find a Science PhD all that challenging. But yes s/he would need to know the problems with a materialistic paradigm at this stage of the game.

Quote:
I am afraid that is exactly what modern astrology does (reverse-engineered): take this pill, but don't forget: this half is for your headache and this half is for your stomach, don't mix them up!


I can't follow your thinking here. I explained to Tom earlier that the term 'modern' astrology is unhelpful, if not non-sensical, when there are so many diverse 'modern' models doing the rounds. Are you saying we can't identify and analyse, and potentially find on the chart, the differences in people's 'assertion'? If so i'll have to return my fee as I used a different approach with each individual.
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###



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Posts: 1380

Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I explained to Tom earlier that the term 'modern' astrology is unhelpful, if not non-sensical, when there are so many diverse 'modern' models doing the rounds.


Yes, all the posts in this thread have been from a modern perspective by modern astrologers. We are all modern astrologers. Ignorant barbarians now occupy the temple. Wink


This thread shows the passive position so often (usually?) taken with astrology. Earlier in the thread it was questioned whether transits are enough to indicate events. Does it matter? Do we really want to focus on astrological techniques and factors solely as indicators of what will happen to us? Perhaps that always was the focus of astrology, but it makes more sense and seems more encouraging to use astrology to point out the best times to act. The current transits of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn to the natal chart, for example, can be used as indicators of the quality of the time, the season. They can show us when to do what. We then become active co-creators in the ongoing creation of the world rather than so many ducks in a row waiting for the shot.

The fact that such a possibility seldom gets mentioned shows that current-day astrologers are much more superstitious than they care to admit. Those who favor 'traditional' astrology and a more intellectual approach are worse in that respect than the New Age astrologers who let us stretch the natal chart and try. Along with predicting events the intellectual types then want to measure and test what happened to whom. Barbarians in the temple, I tell you. Laughing
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trevor
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps that always was the focus of astrology, but it makes more sense and seems more encouraging to use astrology to point out the best times to act. The current transits of Mars, Jupiter and Saturn to the natal chart, for example, can be used as indicators of the quality of the time, the season. They can show us when to do what. We then become active co-creators in the ongoing creation of the world rather than so many ducks in a row waiting for the shot.


Yes, this is a crucial part of what psychological astrology's 'raison d'etre' is. Developing a person's consciousness so the quality of the 'time' can be used constructively.
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geodorn



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 23
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentlemen, stretching is a healthy exercise, I am all for it Smile But I would like to excuse myself from stretching Saturn into Venus, even though it might produce a transformative revolution in modern astrological paradigm and provide invaluable means for dramatic repolarization on a tectonic scale of core psychological mutations and allow us to escape the cyclic rebirth process by participating in the intricate workings of the material balance of vegetative ecosystems, which are of paramount importance for the psychological well-being of humanity. I hope you will understand and forgive. Let James Randy be with you Smile


Trevor, by that example with the pill I meant that it is not much different with the "psychological" techniques, as I see it. it's basically a panacea: ooh, you have mars in virgo, that explains it! ooh you also had adolescent anger outbursts and your mars is in first in aries? but that's exactly why, dear! I base this on the simple fact that everybody has this "condition". But somehow Green managed to draw this parallel with mars. Impressive flexibility, yes.

Anyway, I know I am missing a lot by not living according to transits. I just hope that those who do it blindly sleep well. It should be highly fulfilling to live your life according to somebody's (mis?)interpretation of heavenly bodies. This is why we had all this exchange about how important it is to think critically. And, I am sorry, but all these stretching exercises are not compatible with critical thinking. That's all I wanted to say and I doubt I can contribute more here.
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seasand



Joined: 03 Dec 2008
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't know the same cycle happened in 1988.

I was 8 and my brother was born. In 1989 nearly one year later, a big imigration happened to my country and many, to me unknown relatives filled our house from another country, it was a very busy time, exciting and sad at the same time... So the cycle was in sagittarius so that explains the foreign country imigration in my life, i didn't move anywhere but our house was full of imigrators. The process started in 1988, and eve earlier so it just bursted out in 1989.

And about my brother, it was the most beautiful time , 1988.
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It should be highly fulfilling to live your life according to somebody's (mis?)interpretation of heavenly bodies. This is why we had all this exchange about how important it is to think critically.


The standard acceptance of a lot of preceding somebodies' interpretations of heavenly bodies makes it possible to say:

Quote:
But I would like to excuse myself from stretching Saturn into Venus ...


Those somebodies long ago defined Saturn and Venus for us: we have accepted their meanings for the two planets. Is this thinking critically or is it choosing the comfort offered by ancient authority? Critical thinking is less effectively practiced than we care to believe.
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trevor
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2009 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Trevor, by that example with the pill I meant that it is not much different with the "psychological" techniques, as I see it. it's basically a panacea: ooh, you have mars in virgo, that explains it! ooh you also had adolescent anger outbursts and your mars is in first in aries? but that's exactly why, dear! I base this on the simple fact that everybody has this "condition". But somehow Green managed to draw this parallel with mars. Impressive flexibility, yes.


With respect you're presenting as someone whose knowledge of psychological astrology is on a par with my knowledge of Mongolian star worship circa 8,350 BCE.

Everybody is unique, isn't this fundamental to astrology? No 'conditions' are the same. All 'adolecescent outbursts' are specific to the individual and only understandable, forget about astrology for a minute, in relation to this persons (sub)cultural, familial, historical......context. We know enough, thanks to our psychological friends or enemies Laughing , to understand that adolescence is the search for 'identity' and I don't think you'll find any of these folks saying anyones 'identity' is the same.

As to Greene a thousand charts of 15yr olds with Mars in the 8th will elicit a thousand unique narratives albeit grounded in what Mars and the 8th house seem to symbolise. In each case she would need to get to know the person to find out the 'context' of their lives. The chart tells you little about this, it could be the chart of a hamster after all.
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geodorn



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 23
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Those somebodies long ago defined Saturn and Venus for us: we have accepted their meanings for the two planets. Is this thinking critically or is it choosing the comfort offered by ancient authority? Critical thinking is less effectively practiced than we care to believe.

Kirk, sure, but I am sorry to tell you that if you think I accepted the general meaning of the planets on blind faith you are at a wrong address. So, yes, critical thinking is indeed tough, and yes one should start with himself, so be my guest. You see, I am not an astrologer and I don't really care who and what, be it Sospartas, Ptolemy, Tyl, Green, Valens, Morin, you name them. What I am interested in is does it work or not. If you like, yes, I am a barbarian at the temple of "anything goes" religion. After all, I was not the one promoting "let's stretch the chart and be happy". And if you did not notice yet: I have nothing against psychological explanations (I actually started with the “psycho” school), I just don't buy: "oh look, you have mars in virgo, so you have it unintegrated in adolescence". Simply because -everybody- has it unintegrated then. Yes, critical thinking is not always pleasant, but you are all for it, right? I do respect that Smile

Trevor,
Quote:
With respect you're presenting as someone whose knowledge of psychological astrology is on a par with my knowledge of Mongolian star worship circa 8,350 BCE.

I never said I have a lot of knowledge, check the previous posts. But I did read some of the "psychological" books, but that's not the point. From the questions I asked you regarding your own quotes of the “Stars” in that field I have not seen anything yet remotely convincing. One says a funny banality that I have paraphrased in the previous post, the other diagnoses a rather uncommon cause from a very common occurrence. From what I’ve read of the “psychological” techniques I find your examples more of a rule than an exception. So, convince me otherwise.
Quote:
As to Greene a thousand charts of 15yr olds with Mars in the 8th will elicit a thousand unique narratives albeit grounded in what Mars and the 8th house seem to symbolise. In each case she would need to get to know the person to find out the 'context' of their lives. The chart tells you little about this, it could be the chart of a hamster after all.

Oh, I indeed have no doubt she will elicit a thousand unique narratives out of thin air. But it’s not about this. What I have a problem with is: she explained a person’s extremely common adolescent qualities by a rather unique chart condition. You really do not see any problem with this? It’s like you sneeze and a doctor says it means you have swine flu, period.
OK, suppose she does “need to get to know the person to find out the context” for the thousand unique narratives grounded in the position of natal Mars. You think you would not be able to do it? Somehow I think anyone could tell stories about people they know. Then please explain why do you need a chart to do it? To bind mars to your story of person’s uniqueness? Indeed, unique.

Anyway, fellow critical thinkers, I need your help. I dislocated my shoulder this morning, no kidding. Came back from the ER and thought: gee, maybe I should have checked the transits, you know, to be more careful next time. So I checked them… Moon trine moon (with all the pleasant “feelings” and “comfort”, which helped me realize the depth of my psychological situation) plus separating opposition Jup to Asc. And not a single other transit in the sky except some really slow outer planets. Is Jupiter soooo bad (and slow to show up)? Kirk, should I stretch it, or should I better concentrate on a 3 deg quincunx Mars / Mars to help me understand the meaning of this (bodily) injury? Thanks Smile
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Kirk, sure, but I am sorry to tell you that if you think I accepted the general meaning of the planets on blind faith you are at a wrong address.


I was referring to accepting without much questioning, without much personal critical involvement, rather than accepting in blind faith. We simply take some things as they are presented to us as probably true and applicable. This is what I meant by “Critical thinking is less effectively practiced than we care to believe”. We accept the tradition.

Of course I can't say whether or not you have carefully thought through the meanings passed down to us for all the planets and signs. You may well have carefully investigated and made changes more acceptable to you for the descriptions and functions of the cardinal, fixed and mutable modes. You may have rejected aspect theory after a lot of thought and investigation. Or, you have accepted the basic structure offered by the tradition. My point is that we can too easily take pride in, or talk about, critical thinking that we didn't, or barely did, even use.


Quote:
Came back from the ER and thought: gee, maybe I should have checked the transits, you know, to be more careful next time. ... Kirk, should I stretch it, or should I better concentrate on a 3 deg quincunx Mars / Mars to help me understand the meaning of this (bodily) injury?


Why ask me? I'm the one who wrote:
Quote:
This thread shows the passive position so often (usually?) taken with astrology ... Do we really want to focus on astrological techniques and factors solely as indicators of what will happen to us? Perhaps that always was the focus of astrology, but it makes more sense and seems more encouraging to use astrology to point out the best times to act.


I was referring to using the chart actively for matching activities and actions with the best times for undertaking them rather than for seeking explanations for events that happen to us. That is the stretching I was referring to, like walking in order to stretch legs that have been trapped in a chair for too long. It's just as you wrote: "Gentlemen, stretching is a healthy exercise, I am all for it". The natal chart likes a good workout – the chart as a guide to the person as process rather than the person as a defined and delimited object.
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trevor
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Oh, I indeed have no doubt she will elicit a thousand unique narratives out of thin air. But it’s not about this. What I have a problem with is: she explained a person’s extremely common adolescent qualities by a rather unique chart condition. You really do not see any problem with this? It’s like you sneeze and a doctor says it means you have swine flu, period.
OK, suppose she does “need to get to know the person to find out the context” for the thousand unique narratives grounded in the position of natal Mars. You think you would not be able to do it? Somehow I think anyone could tell stories about people they know. Then please explain why do you need a chart to do it? To bind mars to your story of person’s uniqueness? Indeed, unique.


Firstly your mis-representing what I said earlier. The 'unique' narrative is generated from the entire chart in conjunction with finding out about the individual's circumstances. It's crucial in relation to the way psychological astrology is conceptualised to find out more about the persons familial life as the 'model' is profoundly influenced by psychodynamic theory. The chart will tell you something about this but it's only through the dialogue with the person that you’ll see, in theory, what's un/conscious.

If the persons 'assertion' seems to be something that requires a more pressing focus then the Mars placement will symbolise something about the dynamics fuelling the more 'overt' behaviour. But on it's own it will reveal little as the astrologer needs to synthesise the psychological logic of the horoscope/zodiac in order to unravel exactly what is going on for this particular individual at this moment in time. However I use 'exactly' loosely as it's never going to be this ‘biologically’ ? precise.

Of course it's not difficult to generate a creative and simplistically persuasive narrative once you know the symbols but the reason (some) people feel astrology has a place (however bewilderingly) is that the narrative which their chart lends it to is more persuasive in persuading them their horoscope says something about their teleology and/or circumstances. If you find that your sun sign description doesn’t resonate for you more than the other 11 then why bother looking into it, I suspect I wouldn’t have done! (although had I been born in 1300?).

As to your shoulder, a psychological astrologer would explore the circumstances as to how you did it, perhaps look at your Mars and they may speculate as to the role of the unconscious in the chain of events. However they might say well just use your common sense next time or you were just unlucky. It all depends!

Freud said 'All behaviour is meaningful' what he should have said is 'All behaviour is meaningful, but its not always deep and meaningful'. We are (probably) just clever monkey’s trying to get through each day.
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geodorn



Joined: 04 Apr 2009
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Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The natal chart likes a good workout – the chart as a guide to the person as process rather than the person as a defined and delimited object.

Kirk, yes, I fully agree. The context of the late discussion here though was about how "universal" some of the modern approaches are. Of course, one needs to work on a chart, but he/she needs to be consistent and as precise as possible.

Quote:
Of course it's not difficult to generate a creative and simplistically persuasive narrative once you know the symbols but the reason (some) people feel astrology has a place (however bewilderingly) is that the narrative which their chart lends it to is more persuasive in persuading them their horoscope says something about their teleology and/or circumstances. If you find that your sun sign description doesn’t resonate for you more than the other 11 then why bother looking into it, I suspect I wouldn’t have done! (although had I been born in 1300?).


trevor, that has been my point in the past N posts and I have tried to show why I think the (rather typical) examples of "psychological" astrology do not appeal to me and, most likely, would not appeal to any one who would stop and think how "universal" they are even though they are much more sophisticated than the sun-sign descriptions.

Regarding the shoulder business... it's actually a secondary dislocation, the original one was (drum roll...) 12 y ago. Jupiter? Or the profected Asc square Sun (it was actually exact this time)? I don't think any of them were really involved. The first missed this one and both missed the original by a few months in opposite directions. But it would be very tempting to find whatever underlying symbolism. And I can understand how people could buy into it. Which is probably fine, because it gives them an opportunity to think things "away" maybe discovering the real problem in the processes. However, I think it is quite dangerous, because it most probably will lead them away from the real problem. That is why I think we need to be more "precise". Anyway...
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