Obviously I haven't spent as much time as I should have on this thread, but I thought I'd bring up something of interest regarding a quote from Dr. H.

You might also be interested in learning of the thesis advocated by Dr. John Sotos in 2007 that Lincoln suffered from a rare genetic disorder named multiple endocrine neopasia, type 2B (MEN2B). Sotos claims this condition would have killed him had he not been shot.

What struck me about this was recalling that JFK, whose assassination has been compared to Lincoln's so often, had a medical condition that might have killed him at a relatively young age as well. Kennedy had Addsion's disease, an endocrine or hormonal disorder. At one point, while a very young man, Kennedy was given the last rites of the Roman Catholic Church while ill with this condition Although this is no longer the practice, when Kennedy was young the last rites were only given when the patient was at death's door. In 2009 it is possible that the condition might not be as serious as it was in the l930s and 40s.

The disease is caused by a lack of production of the hormone cortisol by the adrenal glands. The adrenal glands are located on the kidneys. The kidneys are ruled by Venus. Using the traditional 3:00 PM birth time for Kennedy, Taurus is on the 8th and Libra rises, both ruled by Venus. Using Dr, H's rectified time for Kennedy, Libra still ascends but 1 Gemini is on the 8th (Alchabitius Semi arc favored by Dr. H). Mercury is in Taurus. Using Regiomontanus, Taurus is on the 8th. Both the Sun and Venus occupy the 8th using Alchabitius. As stated above. Venus rules the kidneys, and according to Richard Saunders, the flesh. The flesh darkens with Addison's disease.

Gemini, again according to Saunders, rules "corrupted blood." Take that for what it's worth in this case. Regardless of what time or signs or house system we use, Kennedy's condition is shown in the house of death - never a good sign.

I agree with your characterization of Venus/Aries as purification through public execution.

I sure hope this isn't true.

Tom

If a birth certificate is presented with a time not rounded off to the nearest half hour, like yours at 6:24 AM, it is probably highly accurate. Any error is due to clock error or recording error. These issues can be magnified when Mercury is retrograde at the time of birth, Mercury is combust, or malefics fall in the 12th house which describe the conditions immediately prior to birth which can be indicative of problems in delivery. Without any of these conditions, the 6:24 AM time should be fairly solid, perhaps off a minute or so.

I thought I'd throw in my first-hand experience about the reliability of birth times on birth certificates.

The birth of my first child was one of the most memorable experiences of my life, and I was not doped up or otherwise impaired. At the moment of the birth, a nurse specifically assigned to note the time hollered "5:23 AM." Being an astrologer, I glanced at the large clock in the delivery room to make sure she had it right. Yep. I remember this with extreme clarity, perhaps because I have four planets in Cancer.

There was a recording error, though and her birth certificate says my daughter was born at 5:32.

The only reason I mention this is that none of the factors that might lead one to question the time was in effect. Mercury was direct and not combust, there were no malefics in the twelfth house, and the time was a precise number.

As a result, I am a bit skeptical of the birth time on a given birth certificate and will check it by seeing if progressions track closely to past events in the person's life.

Hello Ellen,

Thank you for your comments.

It supports my opinion, which is that ALL charts should be rectified.

The "chart" is the First Cause... if there is an error in that, that error has the potential to propagate through all that follows!

As an example... my own birth certificate says "6:18 am". An article in the local newspaper also listed the 6:18 am birth time. All through growing up, 6:18 am was firmly stuck in my mind.

Using not so exact methods (meaning transits, solar arcs, secondary progressions), over time it became obvious that my birth was at least a minute earlier. For some time, I used the 6:17 am birthtime and was confident that it was more correct than 6:18, but still felt only that 6:17 am was the CLOSEST MINUTE to when I was born.

Now, using other methods, IN WHICH SECONDS OF BIRTHTIME-CHANGE EQUATE TO ASPECTS BEING PITCHED MUCH FURTHER (forward or backward) IN TIME (example, over two months shift in aspect maturity for only a 38 second birthtime change); it's possible by lining up those Events and getting the birthtime down to seconds. With that done, my final birthtime turns out to be 6:16:44.

For transits, that's not much difference... 6:16:44 versus 6:18 (from Birth Certificate); HOWEVER, for exacting methods like Topocentric Primary Directions, the original 6:18 time gives DRASTICALLY ERRONEOUS RESULTS for the aspects coincident with Events in my life. Making that little, 1 minute & 16 seconds earlier, time change and suddenly, the symbolism MATCHES the events and to VERY FEW MINUTES ARC AS ORB!!!

If you're using approximate dynamic systems, it still should be considered NECESSARY to get the chart to the nearest minute. Though keep in mind that there is more precision both in birthtime and in dynamic systems available...

I guess the question with regard to "assuming" (any) birthtimes is... HOW SLOPPY DO YOU WANT TO BE?

Central Scrutinizer

For transits, that's not much difference... 6:16:44 versus 6:18 (from Birth Certificate); HOWEVER, for exacting methods like Topocentric Primary Directions, the original 6:18 time gives DRASTICALLY ERRONEOUS RESULTS for the aspects coincident with Events in my life. Making that little, 1 minute & 16 seconds earlier, time change and suddenly, the symbolism MATCHES the events and to VERY FEW MINUTES ARC AS ORB!!!

You're making me even more skeptical. A difference of 1 minute and 16 seconds makes for ?DRASTICALLY ERRONEOUS RESULTS?? Within a lifetime, within a day, 1 minute and 16 seconds is a minute speck of time. It's only a tiny fraction of even an hour. It dearly tries the imagination to see any possible way a symbolic system could meaningfully pinpoint the lengthy birth process down to the second for one instantaneous switch of a life to 'On', and then to drastically alter the astrological symbolism from a birth 1 minute or so later. It's a faith in numbers, numbers that follow in obedient order. This is a faith in clock time, precisely measured time, the numbers of a train schedule that we rely on to get us where we want to go. Modern clock time is where we astrologers put our trust.

I spent some pleasant time outdoors tonight looking at a clear, warm summer sky. A fairly lengthy period of time passed, yet time as a succession of experiential dots became unimportant, unnecessary, irrelevant. It became one stretched moment. I didn't get a sense of any sort of celestial motion that might bring drastic changes. Why would it be any different for a human life that may have been starting during that period? But astrologers don't like stretched moments, they want a regular pace of distinct time units that can be tagged with a logical sequence of numerals. It's all about astrologers.

An astrology that shaves off a minute or so from a birth time and then produces drastically different results ... well, what reality is that describing? Do we really want to live there? Birth is a process. Life is a process. The natal chart is a process. Why do astrologers shun process?

Hello Kirk,

You raise some interesting points, but rather than trying to reply piece by piece and pick apart the reasoning, I'll try to respond to the whole of your message, in summary...

It is not important how difficult it is to imagine those systems, it is enough that they exist.

Please think of the difference between, SAY, using Mars' motion to rectify versus using the Moon. Okay... now, try to imagine the difference between using the Moon's motion and the motion of the Angles. See how each step produces more "motion" and therefore exactness indicates a tinier slice of time. Now, if we move from the normal systems (transits, solar arcs, progressions) to Topocentric Primary Directions, we are doing a similar thing. Where transits rely (in a basic sense) on the DEGREE positions of the planets (re: accuracy / aspect-maturity), using Topocentric Primary Directions relies on the MINUTES. The ramifications should be fairly obvious.

What I said in my earlier post is correct. Changing the BIRTHTIME by a mere 38 seconds shifted the exact date of an aspect FORWARD by 2 months and 9 days. Think of it in reverse... if we were rectifying this chart and the "events" were 2 months and 9 days from the aspect, lining everything up, just corrected the birthtime by 38 seconds. See?

Now, yes, in real life, we don't rectify from ONE event, let alone one aspect relative to one event, but you get the idea how it fits together.

Isaac's very wonderful Polaris software takes events that you input and it finds the theoretical BEST FITS to the aspects...keeping in mind SMALL ORBS and never-changing symbolism and the appropriateness of Topocentric Primary Directions to Events. The program gives the most likely birthtimes that will "satisfy" the events. Other methods lead to and confirm the exactness of the time.

As for little moments of time and your sky watching example... Life is NOT like that... life IS made up of those tiny discrete moments.

If you are sitting with your best friend eating an icecream for 5 minutes, the WHOLE 5 minutes of joyous icecream fest can be NULLIFIED by one sudden aneurism. That one MOMENT had the potential to flavor ALL THE SURROUNDING TIME...that IS life.

Enjoy....and please, look into Topocentric Primary Directions.

Central Scrutinizer

In traditional primary directions (this is the only PD I know), 4 minutes of time equals a year. If a birth time is off a minute, your PDs will be off about 3 months or so. If you aren't using PDs, then a minute won't mean much.

Ellen wrote:As a result, I am a bit skeptical of the birth time on a given birth certificate and will check it by seeing if progressions track closely to past events in the person's life.

Agreed. Whatever system you use - progressions or directions - all birth times should be tested against life events for confirmation. If dynamic measurements and life events are not matching up, then rectification may be considered for those using predictive techniques sensitive to the exact birth time. As I said before, some predictive techniques are more robust and don't require split second accuracy in birth times (e.g., Fidaria, Directing by Triplicity, Moon's configuration, and Profections).

In traditional primary directions (this is the only PD I know), 4 minutes of time equals a year. If a birth time is off a minute, your PDs will be off about 3 months or so. If you aren't using PDs, then a minute won't mean much.

What your referring to is called a "key" by most astrologers using primary directions. The most commonly cited is Ptolemy's four minutes of sidereal time which is the time it takes one degree of arc to move over the MC equals one year of life. It is not the only key. The Naibod measurement uses mean solar motion of 59 minutes 8 seconds of arc equals one year of life, and some use the actual solar arc at the time of birth as the key. Kolev lists 9 or 10 keys on his program.

None of this detracts from your main point which is correct, and this explains why astrologers who use primary directions in their work wish to rectify charts as accurately as possible. For things like secondary progressions or solar arc directions that sort of accuracy is unnecessary. Whether the results given by primary direction are so amazingly accurate and therefore worth all the trouble, is the question.

Still birth certificate times have no claim on extreme accuracy and this is a good place to repeat a story told by Robert Hand concerning the birth of his grandchild. Hand did everything humanly possible to accurately record this child's first breath. He was hooked into atomic clocks online, cell phone clocks and God knows what else. If there ever was an accurately timed birth, this was it. The birth certificate came back I think about 10 minutes different from the recorded time he knew to be accurate. Some hospitals are sloppy about that.

Yet I have a friend who has been a hospital nurse for probably over 30 years and she spent many of those years in delivery rooms. The hospital she worked at had strict rules recording birth times. Unless someone made a mistake transposing the time, they were all as accurate as the delivery room clock.

While even ten minutes doesn't sound like much, unless you're using primary directions, it can change the ASC on a solar return and play real havoc with a lunar return.

Tom

Hi CS,

Oh my. . . I was careless again. May I blame it on a possible dramatic inflation in your ?DRASTICALLY ERRONEOUS RESULTS?? I see now that you were specifically referring to the timing of events. I read it as also including erroneous results of interpretation, the kind of events indicated changing drastically with a time change of a bit more than a minute.

I think I'll sit here quietly for a while.



I'll try to.

Hello,

Very good points, Tom.

I assume that everyone else's experience is similar to mine, when I comment about receiving from clients an obviously disproportionate number of "registered birthtimes" that appear to be rounded off. In other words, far more "1:15's or 12:30's" than would appear by CHANCE, compared to "13:57's and 8:01's".

This amongst other things (Primary Directions being one) is part of the "propulsion" behind my statement that ALL birthtimes should be rectified or to the extent that it's possible, confirmed.

Central Scrutinizer

Hello Kirk,

You are right, I was referring to the TIMING of events.

That 38 second discrepancy in birthtime could lead to suggesting something might likely happen at the beginning of February that actually occurs at the middle of April. Not good!

As far as interpreting a natal chart, you are right... a few seconds here or there (depending on technique, of course) doesn't really change anything fundamental.

My initial foray into Topocentric Primary Directions came AFTER having several charts (from clients) in quick succession that were hard to rectify. One didn't have very many events and TWO foggy birthtimes and the other had changing Ascending signs if I made the birthtime a couple of minutes earlier and changing Midheaven signs if I changed the birthtime to a couple of minutes later. After reading a few of Isaac's rectification posts and seeing the specificity of birthtime and the OVERWHELMING connection of aspectS to events; I decided to look into them more. Isaac (Starkman) recommended some FREE software to get started...to whet my appetite...and I used it to rectify my own chart in an evening with more surety than 20 years of slow refinements had done. After that, I was hooked and bought the rectification software, Polaris, which is unique in its methodology. You have to work with the software, ie. brain IS required, but no other way (that I have seen) cuts to the chase so quickly.

A few standouts of the program/system are that it uses VERY SMALL orbs for aspects... just MINUTES OF ARC and mostly in SINGLE DIGITS. In addition, it uses the actual "root meanings" of the planetary symbols. There is no "reaching" for connections by tying things to questionable house rulership networks or any of that sort that takes away from objectivity. The program "spits out" the most likely times (to the second) and with enough events and/or a short enough search range, the true birthtime floats higher up the list. Using a few other techniques confirms which of the times that are suggested is the correct one. (ie. additionally test the birthtime with systems OTHER than the ones that were directly used for rectification)

Re: " ....I think I'll sit here quietly for a while."

Taking bets on that? No need to do that... we all got something to say.

Have fun!

Central Scrutinizer

The Trutina Hermetis, Trutine or Rule of Hermes is a traditional correction method of birth. As will be seen in the example, several moments of births according to the Trutina lie 50 ? 55 minutes apart. This interval is interesting from a mathematical point of view but it also means that births should occur with this interval of time. I don?t know if such an investigation has been made but if the Trutina represents the most ?natural? birth/conception relationship, like the most natural gestation period is nine months, then a ?wave? pattern should become apparent in the listed times of births.

Here follows a technical observation of the Trutina Hermetis based upon a birthchart used in Yuzuru?s ?Mystery rectification chart? thread http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... highlight= The chart itself and the events of the person don?t need further discussion here but since the calculations are there it is interesting to have a look.

Note that I used MC+90? as Cusp I as ?Ascendant? instead of the normal Ascendant. This cusp would have been Ascendant on the equator 90? to the west or for a birth place near French Polynesia.

Looking for a possible birth time using the Trutina, seven possible moments were found:
0:15-0:20; 1:05-1:10; 2:00-2:05; 2:50-2:55; 3:40-3:45-3:50; 4:35-4:40-4:45; 5:35-5:40.


Explanation of the table:
The first three columns are for the date of birth 19 August 1966 at Rio de Janeiro, Brasil.
Column 1 is the time of birth at Rio de Janeiro.
Column 2 is the position of the Moon at the time of birth.
Column 3 is the position of Cusp I of the Equal MC house system, which I used as Ascendant.
The last three columns are for the moment of conception. Since according to the Trutina, the Moon at conception is (in this case) the Ascendant/Cusp I at birth, we only have to look at column 3 to find the position. The next two columns are the corresponding date and time.
Column 4 is the date of conception, all dates are in November 1965.
Column 5 is the time of conception at that date.
Column 6 is the corresponding position of Cusp I for that time.

Birth|19 Aug 1966__ | Conc. Nov 1965
Time|Moon MC+90? | CD Time MC+90
0:00 03Li04 26Aq41, | 09 19:07 05Ge43
0:05 03Li07 28Aq00, | 09 21:25 13Cn09
0:10 03Li10 29Aq18, | 09 23:41 18Le39
0:15 03Li13 00Psc37 | 10 01:59 21Vi32
0:20 03Li16 01Psc56 | 10 04:16 23Li17
0:25 03Li19 03Psc15 | 10 06:34 27Sc32
0:30 03Li22 04Psc34 | 10 08:51 04Cp26
0:35 03Li25 05Psc54 | 10 11:10 11Aq21
0:40 03Li28 07Psc14 | 10 13:28 14Ps49
0:45 03Li31 08Psc43 | 10 16:02 20Ar27
0:50 03Li35 09Psc54 | 10 18:05 20Ta23
0:55 03Li38 11Psc15 | 10 20:25 27Ge52
1:00 03Li41 12Psc36 | 10 22:44 05Le11
1:05 03Li44 13Psc57 | 11 01:03 09Vi25
1:10 03Li47 15Psc18 | 11 03:23 11Li48
1:15 03Li50 16Psc39 | 11 05:42 15Sc13
1:20 03Li53 18Psc00 | 11 08:01 21Sa52
1:25 03Li56 19Psc22 | 11 10:21 29Cp42
1:30 03Li59 20Psc43 | 11 12:40 04Ps26
1:35 04Li02 22Psc05 | 11 15:00 06Ar57
1:40 04Li06 23Psc27 | 11 17:20 10Ta13
1:45 04Li09 24Psc49 | 11 19:40 16Ge41
1:50 04Li12 26Psc10 | 11 21:58 24Cn08
1:55 04Li15 27Psc32 | 12 00:18 29Le38
2:00 04Li18 28Psc54 | 12 02:37 02Li06
2:05 04Li21 00Ari16 | 12 04:57 05Sc02
2:10 04Li24 01Ari38 | 12 07:16 10Sa45
2:15 04Li27 03Ari00 | 12 09:35 18Cp31
2:20 04Li30 04Ari22 | 12 11:54 24Aq17
2:25 04Li33 05Ari44 | 12 14:13 27Ps02
2:30 04Li36 07Ari06 | 12 16:32 29Ar27
2:35 04Li40 08Ari28 | 12 18:51 04Ge36
2:40 04Li43 09Ari49 | 12 21:08 11Cn45
2:45 04Li46 11Ari11 | 12 23:27 18Le06
2:50 04Li49 12Ari32 | 13 01:44 20Vi48
2:55 04Li52 13Ari54 | 13 04:03 23Li00
3:00 04Li55 15Ari15 | 13 06:20 26Sc58
3:05 04Li58 16Ari36 | 13 08:37 03Cp50
3:10 05Li01 17Ari56 | 13 10:52 09Aq46
3:15 05Li04 19Ari17 | 13 13:09 13Ps08
3:20 05Li08 20Ari38 | 13 15:25 14Ar33
3:25 05Li11 21Ari58 | 13 17:40 17Ta12
3:30 05Li14 23Ari18 | 13 19:55 22Ge54
3:35 05Li17 24Ari38 | 13 22:10 29Cn23
3:40 05Li20 25Ari57 | 14 00:24 02Vi58
3:45 05Li23 27Ari17 | 14 02:39 04Li22
3:50 05Li26 28Ari36 | 14 04:52 05Sc44
3:55 05Li29 29Ari55 | 14 07:05 09Sa54
4:00 05Li32 01Ta13 | 14 09:17 15Cp47
4:05 05Li35 02Ta32 | 14 11:30 20Aq19
4:10 05Li38 03Ta50 | 14 13:41 21Pi28
4:15 05Li42 05Ta08 | 14 15:53 22Ar02
4:20 05Li45 06Ta25 | 14 18:03 24Ta05
4:25 05Li48 07Ta42 | 14 20:13 28Ge54
4:30 05Li51 08Ta59 | 14 22:23 03Le49
4:35 05Li54 10Ta16 | 15 00:32 05Vi49
4:40 05Li57 11Ta32 | 15 02:41 05Li44
4:45 06Li00 12Ta49 | 15 04:51 06Sc27
4:50 06Li03 14Ta04 | 15 06:57 08Sa49
4:55 06Li06 15Ta20 | 15 09:06 13Cp52
5:00 06Li09 16Ta35 | 15 11:12 16Aq49
5:05 06Li12 17Ta50 | 15 13:19 17Ps17
5:10 06Li16 19Ta05 | 15 15:26 16Ar37
5:15 06Li19 20Ta19 | 15 17:31 16Ta54
5:20 06Li22 21Ta33 | 15 19:36 19Ge52
5:25 06Li25 22Ta47 | 15 21:41 23Cn48
5:30 06Li28 24Ta01 | 15 23:46 25Le42
5:35 06Li31 25Ta14 | 16 01:50 24Vi54
5:40 06Li34 26Ta27 | 16 03:54 23Li40
5:45 06Li37 27Ta40 | 16 05:57 24Sc03
5:50 06Li40 28Ta53 | 16 08:01 27Sa13
5:55 06Li43 00Ge05 | 16 10:03 00Aq08
6:00 06Li46 01Ge17 | 16 12:05 00Ps46

The number of data is 73 and there are 72 intervals. The average span between the times of column 5 is 2h14m (1/72 of a total of 144h29m). The average moved distance in column 6 is 33?41? . 144h29m is 6.7069444 days. As the basis time span is 6 hours to get 24 hours, multiply by 4. Further 4 x 6.7069444 = ca. 26.828 days. This comes close to the tropical lunar month of 27.322 days. The deviations are probably because of the varying speed of the Moon.
24h / 27.322 = 0h52m42s. This is the average of those several possible moments of births according to the Trutina. If the ascendant is used these time and degree spans will be closer or further from eachother, just like houses are squeezed and stretched on average latitudes.