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I'd like to throw some considerations on this...

You can not reduce everything to Mercury... actually, there are four planets that take up this function in my opinion, in order to form a whole.

They are Mercury, Moon, Jupiter and the Sun (the Sun is less important, but important nonethless).

Let's take Mr. Hand chart as an example. His comunicative skills are ok, but the consistency of that is not. Now, why is that? I believe that is because of his poor Mercury. That is mitigated by some extent because it's conjunct Venus and is in a sign of Jupiter (he has a good Juiter). Allright, so here comes the important part: Jupiter. Although astrology is considered a mercurial activity, that's so cause Mercury is responsible for such things as acting, perfoming, discussing, convincing, rationalizing and so on. It's a spiritual idea brought to the fore in a reasonable, material way. Now, what is the form that it will take? Heath Ledger had a Mercury in Pisces, so does Susan Boyle. It means that it is commited to planets such as Jupiter and Venus in their cases. The Venusian outcome of it is pretty obvious in both cases. Now, the planet responsible for knowledge is not Mercury, as a matter of fact, it is traditionally Jupiter (as it signifies books, not because of form, but because of the content). And in Hand's chart, Jupiter is very well placed, in a tight trigon with Mars, that trigons the MC in Pisces. His Mars is in Scorpio, furthermore, the Moon, ruler of the AC is commited to it, and the Moon is in a tight trigon to the AC. So, all in all, this means that Hand actually has the knowledge which made him famous. Still, his Mercury in fact hinders him, would it be better placed and his theories could actually be less messy and we would not have to dig so much on things that actually do not hold ground among others that do. Another trait of Hand is the visionary belief that computer's could do the work of an astrologer. We know that's not possible, but he actually tried to make that come true. Mercury acting logical in a sign that has an intuitive and subjectivity form such as Sagittarius. His Mercury there represents a missplaced, profound knowledge, that belongs to Jupiter, and delves not on numbers and computers, but on morals, religion, ethics, spirituality, nature and deep understanding, representing the other side of this coin. It's not hard to see why astrology is so enticing for people with strong Pisces and Sagittarius.

My sister has a retrograde Mercury in Sagitarius and she can be pretty logical, but she can not really understand deep emotional motivations or bring a degree of subjective understanding to it, since her Jupiter is in Capricorn. And that's interesting, cause a Mercury in Sagittarius can actually make someone like a robot, straight and logical to a point that sees only cause and consequence, disregarding the inbetween, the experience that leads to that, failing to see that sometimes the same/different attitudes can lead to different/equal outcomes.

So, my point is, Jupiter is often, actually a key to understand how a Mercury can be weak and still a person can be intelligent. And let's not forget accidental dignity as well. You can be a composer with brilliant ideas and poor playing skills (Wagner - probably good Venus, not so good Mercury) or a carpenter really skilled for practical purposes but with zero creativity (hence the need of a designer).

So, a Jupiter and Mercury could indicate an astrologer that is actually a con artist, since he will have Mercurial ability to back the demands of being an astrologer, but not the deep knowledge that lights the path to truth or reality (good Mercury, bad Jupiter).

The same reasoning applies to the Sun/Moon pair, since the Moon reveals the emotions/subjectivity and the Sun is the ego/reason that drives the person. And they can be in conflict or in harmony, getting in each other's way or not.

Just to end this, I'll give a final example. I have a colleague that has a Mercury in Pisces in the first house. He is not dumb or anything, since his Mercury is not afflicted except by sign position (I do believe that sign position alone does not create any aberration). His Jupiter is in Taurus, so he is not bright. But for each test he has to do on the university, it's a torment for him, compared to his fellow students. He spends afternoon after afternoon studying, trying to put eveything together. He is slow to speak, even though he is not wrong when opening his mouth (not bright either). It's a part of intelligence that gets compromised for him. He is a good person though. On the other hand, another friend of mine with Mercury in Gemini is cunning, sweet talker, smart and good at acting. But her Jupiter in Gemini, Mars in Cancer and Moon in Scorpion produces a egoistical rush (she has no foresight, since she only lives for the moment's need. There's little commitment of her to anything, so she doesn't build anything, even if she is able to do it). So although intelligent, she is shallow.
Last edited by PFN on Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:28 am, edited 6 times in total.

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PFN wrote: Let's take Mr. Hand chart as an example. His comunicatives skills are ok, but the consistency of that is not. Now, why is that? I believe that is because of his poor Mercury. That is mitigated by some extent because it's conjunct Venus and is in a sign of Jupiter. Allright, so here comes the important part: Jupiter..
I vote for Jupiter too in Hand case, which is in the first house in exaltation even if retrograde.

Moon and Mercury are not linked by any aspect, Moon in its fall and Mercury in detriment, but they are kept together by Jupiter in some way, because Mercury is in Jupiter sign and Moon in Jupiter term, at least I cannot see any other congruency, but I just gave a look to the chart in Astrodatabank so I can easily miss something.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

27
Like the sister of PFN I have a retrograde Mercury in Sag and I consider myself logical in contrast to others I work with.I am beginning to form an idea that if we do take Mercury to indicate mind then perhaps its phase is more of an indication than its sign. In an article on this site there is a suggestion that a mercury at inferior conjunction points to lack of wisdom.
Did Margherita point out something similar about phase in Tractatus Sphaerae 1290ev?

Of course you could see my Merc as a red flag and wisely ignore me. :-?

Matt

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matt23z wrote: In an article on this site there is a suggestion that a mercury at inferior conjunction points to lack of wisdom.
Did Margherita point out something similar about phase in Tractatus Sphaerae 1290ev?

Of course you could see my Merc as a red flag and wisely ignore me. :-?

Matt
Well, I surely wrote that Mercury phases are important and the inferior conjunction is worse than upper, but I cannot remember the book you mentioned, maybe it was quoted by someone else?

Anyway I'm not in war with Sagittarius/Pisces Mercury, my sister has Sagittarius Mercury and surely she is not a stupid, she has a university degree in mathematics, but I don't know how to explain, sometimes she is very unattentive to her words, she does not think before talking. Many of my friends noticed this.

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

29
If one takes the person with the signs ruled by the luminaries at the top and the signs connected to Saturn (excrement) at the bottom and then looks at exaltations Jupiter would be connected to the head (wisdom, inspiration), Mercury to the throat (cunning, logic, speech), Moon and Saturn to the heart (relations, affections but also aloofness, envy and hate), the Sun to the solar plexus (self-identity, assertiveness), Venus to the genital organs and Mars to the lowest region (most physical in both Tantra and Kabbalah, survival, competition). One possible scheme, maintains Sun=solar plexus and maybe improves on some others compared to the Aries, Taurus... scheme. Maybe not to everyone's taste though (but the ancients also in Egypt at least were concerned with things like this).

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Gjiada wrote:my sister has Sagittarius Mercury and surely she is not a stupid, she has a university degree in mathematics, but I don't know how to explain, sometimes she is very unattentive to her words, she does not think before talking. Many of my friends noticed this.
My sister has a degree in the same field and exactly this same behaviour. The interesting thing here is that Mercury in Sagittarius can bring a degree of over sinceretity/rash/openess in the person discourse. About the alledgely tendence to exact fields of knowledge, probably just a coincidence.

We can not forget that the 3rd/9th axis is more relevant to the knowledge field, alongside planets in earth/air/fire signs under strong Saturn/Mercury influence.

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@ Matt
matt23z wrote:Well for a start I reckon Mercury is moving at 1D 34' p.d. so it is fast in motion. I think we agreed elsewhere 1D 12' is average.

Matt
Speed depends on position in the epicycle; if we are talking about Hand chart, it's because Mercury is with the Sun, invisible and combust.


@PFN
PFN wrote:My sister has a degree in the same field and exactly this same behaviour. The interesting thing here is that Mercury in Sagittarius can bring a degree of over sinceretity/rash/openess in the person discourse. About the alledgely tendence to exact fields of knowledge, probably just a coincidence.
True? But i understand you should notice that kind of behaviour.
For me it's a very peculiar tract. I'm always very attentive to what others say and what I say

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

34
I am at last working out planetary phase but Mercury is notoriously tricky. This morning he was faintly visible in the pre-dawn sky. Not often seen in smoky London town.

The Sun Sign books say foot-in-mouth syndrome,that is getting into trouble by speaking too honestly is a trait of Sun in Sagittarius. Mercury of course spends nearly all his time in the same sign as the Sun so maybe he is the cause.

Regards

Matt

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PFN wrote: We can not forget that the 3rd/9th axis is more relevant to the knowledge field,
this is very true when considering a persons intelligence. Education is a matter of the 3rd and 9th houses.

When speaking of Mr. Hand's chart, Jupiter is an angular planet determined toward Profession and Honors (MC) in his exaltation. I've noticed angular planets allow for the manifestation of planets and points they rule over regardless of that planet/point's placement.
Jupiter brings honor to the native for those things it is responsible for in the chart. Mercury in Sag./6th is indicative (to me) of a researcher, Jupiter a teacher. Regardless of the numerous books and papers written about both modern and classical astrology, that we all have benefited from, his attempts at hybridizing them have been less successful.
I think Mr.Hand's chart is interesting because Jupiter is the prominent significator of Honors, and as such makes Mercury more prominent as well.
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