Martine wrote:
Th Moon is at 5?30' Libra, Saturn is at 9?11' Virgo. I think it is the 9?11' Sagittarius point which is carried by the diurnal movement to the conjunction of the Moon. I think that the direction is converse in the traditional sense.

The ascendant is in Pisces, true? So the Moon is in the quadrant from MC to Desc.

According Ptolemy in this case you would consider how much it takes for the Moon to arrive to the Descendant, adding and subtracting years according position of planets which interfere with it, which is called horimea.

Anyway I guess that nobody understand how Ptolemy would calculate it

And the direction of the Moon to the square of Saturn (which I believe it's a direct because we move the 9 Sagittarius to the 6 Virgo, according the motion of Prime Mover) is earlier during 1960s.

At least I cannot have in any way 1980s.

But just giving a super quick look to the chart, a Cancer Sun with a Pisces Ascendant can easily think to suicide, in my humble opinion

magherita

Hello Magherita

Astroart wrote :

If the birth time is 5 minutes earlier or 22:55 and if we use Placidus zodiacal primary directions with latitide of aspects according to Blanchinus - Gaurico - Argoli with Naibod key- the result will be:
on 30th October 1979 -converse direction of Moon to square of Saturn.

You wrote :

And the direction of the Moon to the square of Saturn (which I believe it's a direct because we move the 9 Sagittarius to the 6 Virgo, according the motion of Prime Mover) is earlier during 1960s.

At least I cannot have in any way 1980s.

I tried to find this direction with Janus 4.3 and with Morinus, but I did not succeed. However, I could not do it with the latitude of aspects, as there was no option for it.

You are right, if we more the 9 Sagittarius (promittor) to the 6 Virgo (significator), that is direct in both the traditional and the modern sense. But there is also the other square of Saturn, at 9 Gemini. For this one, the direction is converse.

I will try to calculate these two directions with Janus and let you know.

Regards

Contrary to what I said before, there is an option in Janus for the latitude of aspects. It is called "Bianchini".

I calculated the Placidus zodiacal primary directions with this option, for a birth at 22:55 and found the following :

- Sinister square Saturn direct to Moon 9 Feb 1967
- Dexter square Saturn converse to Moon 28 Oct 2010.

So you are right, it cannot be around 1979-80.

You wrote :

But just giving a super quick look to the chart, a Cancer Sun with a Pisces Ascendant can easily think to suicide, in my humble opinion

I came to the same conclusion, looking at the almuten of the Ascendant. But, whatever was in his mind, it seems likely that he was murdered.

Regards

Gjiada wrote:The ascendant is in Pisces, true? So the Moon is in the quadrant from MC to Desc.

According Ptolemy in this case you would consider how much it takes for the Moon to arrive to the Descendant, adding and subtracting years according position of planets which interfere with it, which is called horimea.

Actually, Ptolemy says that this is one consideration when the apheta/hyleg is in that quadrant; but there is also still the 'normal' method of directing the apheta to the malefics.

And the direction of the Moon to the square of Saturn (which I believe it's a direct because we move the 9 Sagittarius to the 6 Virgo, according the motion of Prime Mover) is earlier during 1960s.

Yes, it is a direct direction because it is the promissor (the square of Saturn) which moves with the primary motion. It would be perfected in his early forties, the exact time depending on a number of variables.

I calculated the Placidus zodiacal primary directions with this option, for a birth at 22:55 and found the following :

- Sinister square Saturn direct to Moon 9 Feb 1967
- Dexter square Saturn converse to Moon 28 Oct 2010.

So you are right, it cannot be around 1979-80.

I have to do a clarification about the direction.I take and move the Moon(5 degrees Libra) to the sinister square of Saturn(9 degrees in Sagitarius) in counterclockwise direction(converse).

The ascendant is in Pisces, true? So the Moon is in the quadrant from MC to Desc

.

According to Ptolemy because the apheta( Moon) is in the western part of horoscope- the apheta (Moon) must be carried in clockwise direction(direct) to different points like aspects or planets.The apheta is movied, the points stay fixed.
But some of Arabic astrologers(Haly Abenragel for example) do not comply with this rule and therefore I think it is possible to move the Moon in converse direction to the square of Saturn.

Thanks to Martine for the kind reply; I checked the Parts data with the rectified birth time/Asc, and all remain within the same signs, with the same significators (indicators) as in my analysis posted above. The Pars Hyleg moves back to about 6Gemini22, but the conjunction with Aldebaran-though not as exact-still operates because of Aldebaran being a 1st magnitude star with an orb of 3 degrees; the progression of Pars Hyleg to its planetary significator, Mercury (with Mercury's South Ascellus connection) is also not as close as with the 11:00 PM birth time-however even in this case the progressed Pars Hyleg is still within 3 degrees of the nMercury, so the progressed conjunction indications would remain intact.

I was tempted to do a little experiment relative to house systems with the Part of Death (this is an all-important indicator in my analysis, with its significator, Mars, in the first decanate of Scorpio in the natal chart, having so many important connections with the progressions) The Part of Death formula is Asc + Cusp of 8th - Moon. I wondered what would result if I put in the cusps-of-the-8th as arrived at by different house system methods.
In the Whole Sign House Method I used in my analysis, the sign in which the Part of Death is posited is Aries, with Mars as the significator (Death Indicator): would the result be the same using other house systems? After input of the original natal data I ran several set-ups through the Astrodienst free-horoscope chart site:

+The Part of Death was posited in Aries (although different parts of Aries) from 8th house cusp degrees derived from the following House systems:
-Equal house
-Koch
-Alcabitius
-Morinus
-Porphyry

+However, the Part of Death was posited in Taurus (with Venus as the Death Indicator) using:
-the Regiomantus system
...and the Placidus system (!!)

The Part of Death with Venus as Death Indicator absolutely does not fit in with the clear-cut rythym and timing indications of the Boulin natal chart progressed and time-profected to his death at 59 years of age. I found this to be a very interesting result of my little experiment with the several house systems.

Hello Martin

Martin Gansten wrote: Actually, Ptolemy says that this is one consideration when the apheta/hyleg is in that quadrant; but there is also still the 'normal' method of directing the apheta to the malefics.

I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

I tried even with Placidus software but I cannot guess which could be,

margherita

astroart wrote:But some of Arabic astrologers(Haly Abenragel for example) do not comply with this rule and therefore I think it is possible to move the Moon in converse direction to the square of Saturn.

Apart from one isolated instance in Gaurico (which I believe is simply a miscalculation), I am not aware of any astrologer prior to the 19th century directing against the primary motion/against time. To ar-Rijal (Abenragel) and others of his time, 'converse' meant something entirely different.

Gjiada wrote:I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

No, I almost never bother finding directions for birth times like 23:00, especially not if they are from the early 20th century -- not unless I am being paid for rectification work.

Hi Astroart

I have to do a clarification about the direction.I take and move the Moon(5 degrees Libra) to the sinister square of Saturn(9 degrees in Sagitarius) in counterclockwise direction(converse).

With Janus, using the same options as you do, I find :

- Moon converse to sinister square Saturn 1 Nov 1979

But in this case the software takes Moon as promittor.

Regards

Margherita wrote :

I know that, but did you manage to find in this chart a death direction to the Moon in the "normal" way?

I tried even with Placidus software but I cannot guess which could be,

But is this direction necessary ? I notice that it happened in the sixties and it did not kill the native then.

Even if the time 23:00 looks very doubtful, it can still be close. There is this direction I mentioned in the beginning :

- dexter square Mars direct Part of Hyleg 20 Oct 1979 (Zodiacal Placidus semi-arc with Kepler key).

The Part of Hyleg is calculated this way by Janus : ASC + Moon - SAN. SAN is prenatal syzygy at 22?59' Cancer. The result is 8?42' Gemini, with a tight square from Saturn at 9?11' Virgo. Saturn is lord of 12th, the house of secret ennemies.

Unfortunately, I can't attempt a rectification as I have no information about his private life and no precise dates.

Martine wrote:
But is this direction necessary ? I notice that it happened in the sixties and it did not kill the native then. .

It was not me that mentioned it. No, evidently it is not necessary, because the native was healthy at that time.

I cannot imagine which direction we can consider. I tried even with Placidus. In CieloeTerra in fact when they are studying an event already occurred, they calculate directions for the date of the event.

This is the chart I had for death date, Placidean under the pole directions, Placidus key,


the only thing I can see it's directed Mars sextile to natal Mars, if somebody can see something else the picture is here,
margherita