Football Club History (foundation dates)

[john]

[john]

Hello all.
The official Villa response is beneath. Received a few minutes ago.

Opinions on this would be welcome.


Hello John,

The matter of the origin of the club is covered in my new 2-volume book, about which there is information on my website.

When I wrote the book, there were only a few certainties (from my primary researches) I had about the 1874-75 period;

1. That (as you state) the football season then ended in March (and started in October). This is stated by many early commentators.
2. That Jack Hughes, one of the founders, stated in a talk he gave in 1899 (and which was reported in the press) that the founding of the club was in February, 1874 and that the Villa's first match was a part rugby, part soccer match against St. Mary's. That report does not say when the match was played.
3. Some later reporters (including Norman Edwards) stated that the first match (the part rugby, part soccer match) was in March, 1874, and that the match was the only match of the season. A sports journalist of the 1890s/1900s in his notebook in the Villa's possession also stated March 1874. If the founding of the club was in the February, then March as the date of the first match is very attractive.
4. In opposition, it was also stated in a couple of press reports of the early 1890s that the founding of the club was in October 1874.
5. I found a press report of January, 1875 that refers to a match between Aston Unity and the Villa, which was not (of course) the part rugby match played against St. Mary's.

So there is doubt. But because Jack Hughes was the recognised authority (as he was there), I rather take the dates in 2 and 3 above as the relevant ones.

That is as much as we really know, but I am not prepared to say with 100% conviction that March 1874 was the time of the first match. It may have been at the start of the next season (October or November 1874), but newspapers were very loathe to report anything on football in those days, so there is a certain amount of guessing in all this.

What is very interesting, however, is that since my book was published I was sent a photocopy of a press report of a part-rugby and part soccer match that was played by Villa against St. Mary's in (allegedly) March, 1875 - the time that you suggest. I have yet to validate the date of the report. If that report is of a March 1875 match, then if that was the famous match against St. Mary's, then the legend that it was the Villa's first match is quite incorrect (as there was at least one match played earlier - in January 1875). It could, however, have been the first match that Villa won, as they lost the January match - in which case Mr. Jack Hughes told something of a fisherman's tale!

Interesting stuff! :-) I hope that helps,

Kind regards,

John

[Gem]

Thank you so much John!!

Lots of interesting information and food for thought.

[Ficina]

[john]

Aston Villa,

We have the official view. It looks like Feb or March 1874. Assuming they played at the wekend-most likely a saturday, then its a nice exercise for anyone who does rectification.
Do they do quizes and challenges for something like on the other forum discussion sites? It should keep them busy for a while. I'm sure we can provide the football data

The story is that Aston Villa-yes they have always been called Aston Villa-played this game against a rugby team. One half rugby and one half football.

[john]

Everton.

I agree with the 20/12/1879 date as the foundation.

Do we all use this chart?

Next. They moved to Goodison and played a friendly against Bolton on 24/8/1892.
First league game against Nottm Forest 3/9/1892.

Would anyone use these two charts? Why? Is it not just a change of home-( a good phrase by Gem ) to be seen in the first chart?

[Gem]

Everton were formed as St Domingo's FC and according to the official website:

[GB]

[Gem]

This from Reading FC:

[john]

I didn't get round to doing Wolves.

The information I got was :

10/11/1876 meeting formed St Lukes FC.

1/3/1877 first match

Merged with Blakenhall 1879 to become Wolves

1st game 13/1/1879 away to Stafford.

Moved to Molyneux 1889, first game 7/9/1879.

[Gem]

Thanks for the information above John.

A nice lady at Wolves' reception sent me pages of Wolves' history in cartoon covering their early days but no exact dates there.

Fulham FC gave me links to the history page on their website and to the entry in Wikipedia. Not very helpful but still better than no reply.

[Ficina]

The date I have for Fulham is 12 Dec 1898 which is the day they turned professional. I wasn't entirely satisfied with this as being particularly significant but it was the only exact date I could find at the time I was searching.

Last Saturday they beat Liverpool 3-1 (ko 3pm). A Mars return was very close. Tweaking the chart to around 11.17am puts transiting Jupiter conj Asc and Moon trine MC. More testing is needed of course but perhaps it's a chart that can be worked with unless or until a better date turns up.

[john]

Thats the best date I have for Fulham as well 12/12/1898.

Couldn't find any fixtures for the 2nd division of the Southern League for that year!

I'd join in having a go at their chart. I'd stick with this date as it is the best available.

The only alternative would be some old book in a library in southern England that may have the history of the Southern League and fixture details-unlikely though.

Significant dates

2nd div champions 1949, 2001

Div 3 champions 1932, 1999.

FA Cup runners up 1975

[Gem]

Ficina and John

Yes I agree with you two about the chart when they gained professional status.

There's also the first match at Craven Cottage date: 10/10/1896

There are links between the two charts: Jupiter exact sextile Jupiter, Moon's positions, Mars, Sun-Nepture opposition, etc.

[john]

I found this link that suggests that Fulham changed its name 10 years prior to the 1898 date. This would put the date to December 1888 and they would have been known as Fullham when they moved to Craven Cottage.


http://www.fulhamfc.com/Club/ClubHistory/PreLeague.aspx