I am not demolishing, the radix of the Soviet Union, just think that to have credibility as Astrologers, our astrology must be credible, and if for example we present a group of people argued that part of a fact that does not exist, as is the Soviet Union, it is certain to get a response, you can not make conjectures about something that does not exist, that is why astrologers to be credible as our analysis must start on a credible and not speculation or conjectures astrology, which mathematically may close, but reality takes away validity because there is no Soviet Union.

If you are consistent in that approach your position does have a logic to it. However, as I stated before many astrologers would disagree with you for the reasons I gave. Perhaps the best way to resolve this disagreement is for you and Isaac to make predictions on the charts you each regard as valid and see who is closer to the mark in evolving events within Russia?

Out of interest what charts do you use for the USA and United Kingdom?

Mark

Hi Mark
I use to USA: Jul 4, 1776; Time:17:17:43 LMT, Philadelphia. ASC=13?58'Sagit;MH=3?10'Libra
UK: Jan 1, 1801; Time:00:00:00 LMT; London
England:Dec 25 1066;Time:12:08:07 GMT;London. ASC=26?24'Aries;MH=10?25'Cap.
One explanation, use the Radix from England because it has a particular historical connection with Argentina.
Kind regards

I use to USA: Jul 4, 1776; Time:17:17:43 LMT, Philadelphia. ASC=13?58'Sagit;MH=3?10'Libra
UK: Jan 1, 1801; Time:00:00:00 LMT; London
England:Dec 25 1066;Time:12:08:07 GMT;London. ASC=26?24'Aries;MH=10?25'Cap.
One explanation, use the Radix from England because it has a particular historical connection with Argentina.
Kind regards

Hi Mario,

You are entitled to work with whatever charts you consider resonate to events bests. However, I need to point out the USA did not exist in 1776 and the modern United Kingdom certainly wasn't in existence in 1066 or 1801. Following the argument you used against the Russian 1917 chart these charts are every bit as 'dead'. Doesn't this make your position on national charts somewhat contradictory? The logical progression of your argument vs the 1917 chart would be to use the latest chart for every country. However, you dont seem to be doing this consistently. I am therefore unclear why you are so adamant the 1917 chart for Russia is 'wrong' while the 1066 or 1776 is 'right'.

Mark

Hi Mark
If you asked me which charts I used for USA and UK, to challenge my thinking, it seems lawful, that is fine, what is your thinking now because until now you did not feel anything, you said: "I have not Studied for the national chart Either the Soviet Union or Russian Federation so I can not comment on your delineation. "
Now I ask you what cards you use in the USA and UK, I want to know that you know?
Mario

steven wrote:I echo Kirks sentiments, "I don't see the validity of listing all these with an unexplained assumption that they are somehow relevant to metro bombs."

Tell me do you make significations and meanings as you go?

If people feel inclined to make these listings of directions, then you better start explaining what relevance they have because obviously Kirk and myself are idiots and we need it explained for us. Just because there's ten of your so called directions they don't mean diddly squat without some real signification attached to the event other than the fact that they are many! Is that what you are basing your assumptions on - the pure quantity of directions? You may call that astrology but its an astrology that has no foundation.

Isn't that a bit harsh? Isaac's list is fairly clear once you look at the chart: 3rd house (transportation) planets, one being the Asc ruler active; Saturn, ruler of 8th, square the 8th and opposed to Mercury (travel) with directed Mercury also opposed to radix Saturn. And directed Mars square Saturn.

Using simple, classical planet and house meanings it speaks fairly loudly to violence and possibly death affecting the populace while the travel.

It would be nice to have them spelled out more clearly, especially for those who are new to astrology but the significations can be made clear with very little effort, even, I believe, for a newcomer.

. . . Isaac's list is fairly clear once you look at the chart: 3rd house (transportation) planets, one being the Asc ruler active; Saturn, ruler of 8th, square the 8th and opposed to Mercury (travel) with directed Mercury also opposed to radix Saturn. And directed Mars square Saturn.

Using simple, classical planet and house meanings it speaks fairly loudly to violence and possibly death affecting the populace while the travel [k: i.e., while traveling?].

It would be nice to have them spelled out more clearly, especially for those who are new to astrology but the significations can be made clear with very little effort, even, I believe, for a newcomer.

This is one of those hindsight things. Yes, we can look back and wish ?to have them spelled out more clearly?, but such a statement pointing to the lack of clarity is an admission of how unhelpful the chart would have been for accurate prediction! We now know it was a matter concerning travel, but in predicting we would also have faced other possibilities, such as 3rd house communication networks, the press, or neighboring nations.

The chart in question is for a huge former nation that spread from Europe to the Pacific and included a large part of central Asia. The event, realistically, resulted in relatively few deaths and injuries in one city (compared to the potential of such a vast area). If the chart truly were effective and so strongly involved the 8th house then it would seem to point to large scale death involving the whole nation, such as from an epidemic or war. I'm not so sure those in Siberia or who live away from the large cities are all that upset or see their lives differently due to the event in Moscow. This seems to be more the case of distant astrologers looking at the 8th house of a national chart and assuming the majority of the populace is frightened, distraught and in mourning. This is one reason I question the use of national charts and think they're used too freely. One large city doesn't represent the majority of the citizens and their experience. Politically, a period of mourning may have been declared, but is it truly of much significance to those who live a few hundred miles down the road? The fact that it took place in the political and media capital of the nation can lead us to give it too much importance regarding the whole nation.

Hi Mark
If you asked me which charts I used for USA and UK, to challenge my thinking, it seems lawful, that is fine, what is your thinking now because until now you did not feel anything, you said: "I have not Studied for the national chart Either the Soviet Union or Russian Federation so I can not comment on your delineation. "
Now I ask you what cards you use in the USA and UK, I want to know that you know? Mario

Hello Mario,

I didn't ask you which charts you use to challenge you. However, now I know you use older charts for some countries I do think this rather undermines your argument vs the 1917 chart. You made the point that as the Soviet Union no longer exists any chart connected to it is invalid. I think that is a respectable position as long as you are consistent in applying that approach to every national chart.

For the USA I tend to use the Sibley chart and/or the Federal USA chart. For the UK I use the 1927 chart. I feel it more strongly responds to the events following the banking crisis which has devastated the UK economy.

Mark

Steven wrote:

Something that makes real sense! Eclipses and Ingress charts where planets have real significations. xxx I could kiss you for this! This makes more sense than a bunch of irrelevant and unexplained so called directions. I echo Kirks sentiments, "I don't see the validity of listing all these with an unexplained assumption that they are somehow relevant to metro bombs."

Tell me do you make significations and meanings as you go?

If people feel inclined to make these listings of directions, then you better start explaining what relevance they have because obviously Kirk and myself are idiots and we need it explained for us. Just because there's ten of your so called directions they don't mean diddly squat without some real signification attached to the event other than the fact that they are many! Is that what you are basing your assumptions on - the pure quantity of directions? You may call that astrology but its an astrology that has no foundation.

Sorry - explain the significations as well as margherita has and I'll listen.

Hello Steven,

I do have some sympathy for the astrological point you are making here.However, I dont think such emotive language is really helpful on the forum. Its inevitable we are going to disagree on issues here. However, lets keep it respectful and polite.

Thanks

Mark

Kirk wrote: This is one of those hindsight things. Yes, we can look back and wish ?to have them spelled out more clearly?, but such a statement pointing to the lack of clarity is an admission of how unhelpful the chart would have been for accurate prediction! We now know it was a matter concerning travel, but in predicting we would also have faced other possibilities, such as 3rd house communication networks, the press, or neighboring nations.

Fail to see how saying it would have been nice if Isaac spelled it out more clearly is an admission of the chart not being of any use. The aspects are there. True, if you were looking at them before the event travel would be only one of the 3rd house significations that might be considered. Death issues and violence are more generically seen given that Mars and Saturn are both active as well as the 8th. Something violent did happen and the whole country was made aware of it; which is the whole point in using a mundane chart based on a nation's capital.

Kirk wrote: The chart in question is for a huge former nation that spread from Europe to the Pacific and included a large part of central Asia. The event, realistically, resulted in relatively few deaths and injuries in one city (compared to the potential of such a vast area). If the chart truly were effective and so strongly involved the 8th house then it would seem to point to large scale death involving the whole nation, such as from an epidemic or war.

The 8th is death issues and manner of death, it doesn't necessarily mean mass death. The countries attention became focused on some violent deaths.

Kirk wrote: I'm not so sure those in Siberia or who live away from the large cities are all that upset or see their lives differently due to the event in Moscow.

Well, they might, if Putin clamps down on things.

Kirk wrote: This seems to be more the case of distant astrologers looking at the 8th house of a national chart and assuming the majority of the populace is frightened, distraught and in mourning. This is one reason I question the use of national charts and think they're used too freely. One large city doesn't represent the majority of the citizens and their experience. Politically, a period of mourning may have been declared, but is it truly of much significance to those who live a few hundred miles down the road? The fact that it took place in the political and media capital of the nation can lead us to give it too much importance regarding the whole nation.

I don't disagree that the charts may be misused or overused; however, that doesn't necessarily mean they have no value. Russia certainly changed in 1917, going from a monarchy to communism, and that did affect the lives of everyone in the country. Well the West likes to believe communism is dead the country is still being run by people who grew up under the communist system, it's doubtful their mindset changed overnight simply because the Berlin wall came down. Isaac may be right in thinking the 1917 chart is still valid although more than one event would need testing. Forward perdictions would be the most useful.

The 8th is death issues and manner of death, it doesn't necessarily mean mass death. The countries attention became focused on some violent deaths.

I can't see Russia as a whole now pondering such 8th house mundane astrology matters as the kinds or groups of people who are dying and the nation's mortality rate simply because of a couple bombs in Moscow. They might be thinking of secretive enemies, of attacks and danger, of their vulnerability and the insecure state of the country, but to say that it's a general death matter is the viewpoint of astrologers who are trying to fit in 8th house significations after the fact.

Isaac used primary directions. Such slow moving factors make more sense as referring to a rather long period of time, and would therefore indicate major events or major changes in collective consciousness. Saying that the attention became ?focused on some violent deaths? sounds more like a secondary or shorter-term indication, like a lunation chart ? what people are commonly thinking and talking about for a period of time.

Death issues and violence are more generically seen given that Mars and Saturn are both active as well as the 8th. Something violent did happen and the whole country was made aware of it; which is the whole point in using a mundane chart based on a nation's capital.

The whole world was made aware of it, so I don't understand your argument here of the importance of the capital city. If Los Angeles gets wiped out by an earthquake I don't see the need for a Washington, DC chart to tell us that the USA has become aware of it! But we're getting confused here. The chart Isaac used was for Leningrad ? another disconnect from the current officially non-communist and much smaller country of Russia and its capital city, Moscow. And to say that ?Death issues and violence are more generically seen given that Mars and Saturn are both active as well as the 8th? is another vague (and generic!) statement coming from the awareness that we are dealing with a past event that involved violence and death. Mars and Saturn signify much more than violence and death.

Well the West likes to believe communism is dead the country is still being run by people who grew up under the communist system, it's doubtful their mindset changed overnight simply because the Berlin wall came down.

Something as vague and complex as a country's ?mindset? seems iffy ? and beyond ? as a reason for choosing a national chart.

steven wrote:Well I don't think it's harsh at all.

I am an experienced astrologer and I had a hard time making heads or tails of what was listed. Why should I have to use my time to go through and check his math (so to speak). When people are reading these things it is fair that the writer take the time to tell us his interpretation and significations, especially when non-classical planets are mixed up in the soup. I'm not saying his chart is wrong, I'm asking things get explained.

There's no problem asking for an explanation but that is not how your post came across. Also, this is an astrology forum; it's not unreasonable to assume the majority of readers know the basic meanings of the planets and aspects, posters might think re-stating them is redundant.

Steven wrote:

3rd house (transportation) planets, one being the Asc ruler active

I have cast the chart for 8 Nov 1917 19.00 UT, Leningrad and the Sun is the Ascendant ruler. In which direction is it active? There is not a single direction to the sun listed. And the Sun most definitely is not in the 3rd.

What 3rd house transportation planets are you referring to? There are no planets in the 3rd; by whole sign or division.

bah ... that was my goof; Janus loaded up Leningrad's time zone when I ran the chart and I forgot to reset it to UT; you're right, Leo is on the Asc and the Sun is ruler. However I still get the Moon in the 3rd using Placidus cusps (although I'm not sure which house system Isaac used ... lol ... looks like I made a number of assumptions myself)

Steven wrote: Let's take these one at a time then:

Asc 120 Nep 1'

I do not understand this notation. Since when does the ascendant give an aspect? If it means the Ascendant is directed to the trine of Neptune. That means absolutely nothing in Classical or traditional astrology. Neptune rules nothing and as far as traditional astrology is concerned, and myself for that matter, it is useless debris in a chart.

The notation looked like directed Asc trine radix Neptune within 1 minute of accuracy to me; personally, I have no problem with using the outers; each to his own. In primaries, its the zodiacal location of the Asc, and all positions, that are moved not the object itself so don't see a problem with directing the Asc.

Steven wrote: MC 60 Mars 3'

Again does this notation mean the sextile of the MC (whatever that is) is directed to Mars? If it means the MC is directed to the sextile of Mars the why is that bad? Mars is ruler of the MC (and the 5th) and the MC being directed to the sextile of its own ruler is not bad. In a traditional sense it would indicate a strong king who rules in Power. It has nothing to do with a terrorist bombing.

Again, it would be MC directed to the sextile of Mars. Radix Mars is at 3 Vi, averse to the MC at 2 Ar so it's effects wouldn't necessarily be good.

Steven wrote:
Nep 60 VIII 3'

Using simple, classical planet and house meanings

again there is nothing classical in Neptune. And does this mean 8th house is directed to the sextile of Neptune (then it should have written like the first example of the Asc) or does it mean Neptune is directed to the sextile of the 8th (???) House cusps give no aspects!!!

Moon 120 VIII 1'

Again I'm confused and bewildered?!? Is the Moon coming to another house cusp aspect? If its supposed to note the trine of the Moon coming to the 8th and you really think about it, the Moon is ruler of the 12th and speaks more of enemies dying.

You have a point there; personally I only use planet conjunctions and oppositions to house cusps.

Steven wrote:
Mars 60 Sat 3'

This too has absolutely no significance with reference to the event. The lord of the MC coming to the Lord of death I would expect the death of the president not a bomb explosion in a subway.

Mars is also lord of the 5th, risks, and Saturn is posited in the 1st so could indicate violence involving citizens.

Steven wrote: Sat 90 VIII 4'

The square aspect of the lord of the 7th and 8th coming to the 8th. What has this to do with the people or trains or explosions? Had it come to the Ascendant or the Sun I might understand it.

The ruler of the 7th and 8th square to the 8th would be in a powerful position to effect the meanings of those houses.

Steve wrote: OK I don't have the time to go through these right now but there is no clear "significator and promittor" and what is being directed to what in this list of his directions. Pluto and Neptune have no traditional meanings whatsoever so these are nothing.

Mercury being directed to Saturns opposition has a totally different signification than Saturn to Mercury's opposition!

The only direction I see here that has any semblence to what occured is Saturn's opposition directed to Mercury.

But then again that occurred March 20th by classical Primary direction - and not just topocentric directions.

Now Issac wrote

there are NO LESS than 10 appropriate primary aspects in Topocentric system:

As I see it, traditionally Jane, there is only 1 not 10.

If you reject the outers and directions of the Asc and MC, then I can see your point.

Steven wrote: I do not think it is harsh to ask people to explain themselves.

You saw a meaningless list, I saw a meaningful one so your post looked harsh to me; especially as it came after Isaac had made a longer explanatory post.

Kirk wrote:

The 8th is death issues and manner of death, it doesn't necessarily mean mass death. The countries attention became focused on some violent deaths.

I can't see Russia as a whole now pondering such 8th house mundane astrology matters as the kinds or groups of people who are dying and the nation's mortality rate simply because of a couple bombs in Moscow. They might be thinking of secretive enemies, of attacks and danger, of their vulnerability and the insecure state of the country, but to say that it's a general death matter is the viewpoint of astrologers who are trying to fit in 8th house significations after the fact.

The 8th has significations for issues related to death, the 8th was stimulated by primary direcions; an issue concerning death attracted the countries attention. Not sure why you consider that retro-fitting? Because anyone making a prediction before the event could as easily of claimed it would relate to taxes or wills? Just because an actual prediction may have been different doesn't mean that trying to understand the directions after the fact is forcing them.

Kirk wrote:
Isaac used primary directions. Such slow moving factors make more sense as referring to a rather long period of time, and would therefore indicate major events or major changes in collective consciousness. Saying that the attention became ?focused on some violent deaths? sounds more like a secondary or shorter-term indication, like a lunation chart ? what people are commonly thinking and talking about for a period of time.

Why would they only indicate major events? Not every direction in a natal chart indicates a major event; little things happen day to day in countries same as in people's lives.

Kirk wrote:

Death issues and violence are more generically seen given that Mars and Saturn are both active as well as the 8th. Something violent did happen and the whole country was made aware of it; which is the whole point in using a mundane chart based on a nation's capital.

The whole world was made aware of it, so I don't understand your argument here of the importance of the capital city. If Los Angeles gets wiped out by an earthquake I don't see the need for a Washington, DC chart to tell us that the USA has become aware of it! But we're getting confused here. The chart Isaac used was for Leningrad ? another disconnect from the current officially non-communist and much smaller country of Russia and its capital city, Moscow. And to say that ?Death issues and violence are more generically seen given that Mars and Saturn are both active as well as the 8th? is another vague (and generic!) statement coming from the awareness that we are dealing with a past event that involved violence and death. Mars and Saturn signify much more than violence and death.

Mars, Saturn and the 8th all active at the same time have strong analogies with death; again, trying to match analogies after the fact doesn't necessarily mean the analogies are wrong.

Kirk wrote:

Well the West likes to believe communism is dead the country is still being run by people who grew up under the communist system, it's doubtful their mindset changed overnight simply because the Berlin wall came down.

Something as vague and complex as a country's ?mindset? seems iffy ? and beyond ? as a reason for choosing a national chart.

Group consciousness? Awareness? Whatever you want to call it; I find it no more iffy than associating any radix chart with the birth of a person, election or horary.

Well I agree hindsight is 20/20 can you think of another way to look at an event after the fact other than trying to see if the analogies of the directions (whatever method is used) fit the event?