Question about Masha'Allah's 'On Reception'

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Okay, so I have this chart for the question "Will anything develop between us?"

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My initial reading of this chart was that the Sun was applying to an Opposition to Saturn and Saturn received the Sun by terms so it looked pretty good, but some troubles and delays might come. But then I noticed the Sun would first trine Mars so I concluded that something would get in the way of it when things were going well because that's a Frustration..

Then I came across this from Masha'Allah

4. If the querents significator does not make its first application to the lord of the question, and neither in or from houses ruling the quesited, but rather to some other planet

M?sh??all?h instructs us to look at the first and immediate application of that (second) planet (the one applied to). If this second planet does itself make an immediate application to the lord of the question, all is still well.

The main point is that each planet, as it applies to another planet, commits its disposition to that planet. The applying planet ?pushes? its disposition onto the second planet so to speak. Then the second planet may in turn ?push? its disposition onto yet another, or it might reject the disposition because of lack of reception in which case the matter is destroyed.

b. If the planet applied to is a malefic, and it receives the applying planet, the matter will be perfected.


So I take that as the Sun isn't first applying to Saturn but Mars....and Mars immediately aspects Saturn which is the lord of the question. My real question is this...is Mars receiving the Sun? I know when the aspect is perfected they will be in strong mutual reception and it would definitely be in reception...but at the time of the question the Sun was in Pisces. Would I go by where the Sun was when the perfection occurs or where it was when the question was asked? How would you guys read this chart?

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Hello hiimnotcool

Here's my take on the chart, based on Masha'allah's horary method:
- Sun applies to Mars, and Mars does receive the Sun into his domicile and face when the aspect is exact(which is good, but Mars is also cadent in the worst house, the 12th which speaks for his weakness and inability to perform - moreover, the Sun is also cadent in the 9th...) Mars then applies to the ruler of the quesited, Saturn (which is retrograde and cadent) out of the sign of his detriment; retrograde planets are unable to retain the light sent to them by the applying planet and so they return the light + Saturn rejects anything coming to him out of the house of his enemies(Leo, where he's in detriment). The main significators cadent, the lack of reception and the weakened state of the ruler of the quesited all point out to negative outcome, I'm afraid.
On the positive side, the Moon is very strong both essentially and accidentally; however, after its separation from Mars by square, it is VOC...so it indicates a very long period of inactivity/tardiness in the matter inquired about.
This is what I've perceived from this chart, in short. If you have any more questions, I'll be happy to answer them :)
Greetings,
Goran

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I know when the aspect is perfected they will be in strong mutual reception and it would definitely be in reception...
Do you mean Sun-Saturn or Sun-Mars? Sun-Saturn are in mutual reception by fall though, which is not "strong mutual reception" in anything I've read, especially in an opposition. Each have their own strength to hurt the other?

I believe the Sun does change signs before the Moon does too, so that opposition does seem pretty valid.

Is there an age difference between you, or something (Sun vs. Saturn May/December thing)? Some sort of fundamental difference between you? Do you work together (Mars being prohibitory and 10th ruler might be the issue)? Are they seeing someone else you don't know about (Mars)?

Mars does seem prohibitory in the opposition, but I would think that might be a good thing. Mars in a day chart can be pretty reckless, especially in a fire sign and in the 12th, but Mars is in mutual reception to Sun, so Sun doesn't seem to have much damage here. More so for Saturn? Saturn is in mutual bad reception to Mars, plus, it's retro, and in the 3rd below, so there are some internal struggles going on there. Cadent sigs tend to feel boxed/restricted and unable to act on anything. The 5th ruler is feral in the 8th house of loss, even though it's a benefic in domicile, so something is not working right here. Venus is also detrimented and unaspected. Seems like some unrequited stuff, especially with the Saturn influences for the quesited.

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however, after its separation from Mars by square, it is VOC...so it indicates a very long period of inactivity/tardiness in the matter inquired about.
Yeah, it applies ad vac until a sextile to Jupiter in the 8th (it's the 5th ruler in a house of loss/regret/obsession). Pisces is a mute sign too. Are you not communicating feelings here (the 3rd/9th axis)?

The swifter planet is usually the more ardent one too and the one to bring the matter to perfection. Saturn is pretty much as cautious and slow as you can get, significator-wise. You also have a fire planet, fire rising, day chart thing going on vs. their airy aloofness. That's another thing that makes me wonder about an age difference or something like that. You are pretty different from one another.

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According to Masha'allah's method, Mars doesn't prohibit anything here - it simply carries Sun's disposition to Saturn, because Mars happens to apply to him(the ruler of the quesited). Sun also happens to apply to Mars first - even if Mars weren't here, Sun-Saturn opposition without reception would destroy the matter.
Sorry, have overlooked that Jupiter :-? actually, Moon will not be VOC because while it separates from Mars, it will already be applying to Jupiter.

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According to Masha'allah's method, Mars doesn't prohibit anything here - it simply carries Sun's disposition to Saturn, because Mars happens to apply to him(the ruler of the quesited).
OK, got it. BUT, doesn't Sun oppose Saturn before Mars sextiles Saturn, or does this not matter as long as they are within orb?

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Well, as far as I'm aware, Masha'allah(and other astrologers, up to Bonatti's time) considered primarily the spatial arrangement of planetary aspects. Although in real time, as you've pointed out, Sun will reach Saturn first, Masha'allah considered which planet was nearer to the applying planet in spatial context of the situation. This article explains it really good http://www.skyscript.co.uk/tobyn2.html

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Sun-Saturn are in mutual reception by fall though, which is not "strong mutual reception" in anything I've read, especially in an opposition. Each have their own strength to hurt the other?
I was looking at 'Bonatti's Table of Perfection' yesterday [ http://www.skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html ] and noticed this under the section 'When do planets receive?':
1. A planet will only 'receive' an aspect if that aspect comes from a place where it is dignified. It will not 'receive' an aspect from a place where it experiences debility or detriment. There is no such thing as 'reception by detriment'.


Likewise, there would be no such thing as reception (or mutual reception) by fall.

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I think(based upon the opinions of the authorities in horary - including Deb) that the first question is decisive on the matter inquired about.
In your second example, the Moon is applying to Saturn by trine, but again,Saturn is unable to bring anything to perfection because of its retrograde motion(reception notwithstanding, I think). One more important thing to remember is that there's no real reception by face/term/triplicity only - there has to be a combination of the two, at least.

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Thank you for that info. I'll keep that in mind for future charts for sure. Also...I don't know why I didn't notice this before but she just moved here from California and was talking about moving back soon. Saturn in the turned 9th and my 3rd and retrograde would literally describe that I'd think. Can you tell if you're better off without someone from a chart? Also, it's kind of comforting that the chart said all of this even 3 weeks in advance. Kind of goes to show that events are pretty 'fated' in a sense.

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Can you tell if you're better off without someone from a chart?
I think so, yes. In this chart, she is signified by a retrograde malefic and Lilly advises us to 'expect the worst' in such cases and to 'arrange our business' and 'prepare ourselves' accordingly(I'm paraphrasing here :) ).
As generally in life, we're far better off without something/someone we think is really important to us - in my opinion. In another words - be careful what you wish for, it might come true :lol: