Will this child help or hinder my life?

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Will this child help or hinder my life? April 28, 2010, 9:57 pm, Bedford-Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, NY (40N41, 073W55)

A client of mine has gotten herself in a real 21st century pickle and I'm wondering if you all would care to share some insight as I find myself a bit blind at points with this horary. My client, in her mid 30s, is pregnant with her 4th child. She's at the precipice of some major and positive changes in her life, especially her career, but she's just discovered that she's pregnant. She's in an open marriage (the 21st century part), but she doesn't know who the father is. She, her husband and her boyfriend have all sat down together about the situation, but she's still left with the decision of whether to keep this baby or not.

The chart's radical as the hour and day ruler is in the house of children, though combust. At first glance, it seems that it's fairly clear that the child will complicate her life: Jupiter (her siggy) applies to an opposition to Saturn in the 10th (while conjoining to Uranus) and that Venus (pushed into the 7th) directly opposes the Asc. I suspected that she may angle more toward an early termination of the child as the ruler of the 5th house, Mars, is applying to a square to the Sun (who Mars receives) as the Sun is also tenanted in the house where he is exalted and that Mars rules. However, a friend and colleague who was kind enough to look at the chart with me, makes a good argument that this child has loads of protection. Jupiter who has high dignity in this chart is in mutual reception by triplicity and face with Mars. Also, though Mars rules the moon (who cowers and seems befuddled in the 12th), she is separating from Mars and coming toward a trine to Jupiter. This could be adequately interpreted as she may keep the baby despite knowing that she may cause a separation (Saturn) with her husband, which the Venus-Asc testifies as well. This begs another question that probably determines the most whether this child helps (lives) or hinders (aborted) my client's life: Who is the father?

I looked at three parts that might or might not help: the parts of marriage, father and mother. The part of Father is 14Cancer50 and that opposes N. Node. Part of marriage is 4SAG57 conj. Asc opposing Venus. (Another testimony that threatens the marriage.) Part of mother is 16TAU08 opposing the moon, which seems to both testify to the mother's condition and an argument that she doesn't want to be a mother again. Unfortunately, the 5th house isn't yielding much insight except to say that the possible fathers at least know each other--Mars receives the Sun, Sun in Mars' house, Mercury (ruler of the 7th) is conjoined the Sun in the fifth. With all these "complications," I'm more inclined to think that the boyfriend is the father as the dispositor for the Part of Father is the moon who is both ruled by Mars and separating from him. Likewise, though the Sun rules Mars, the Sun is in the place where Mars has detriment. This fact could, technically, go in either guy's favor, though I would tend to think the Sun is in the place where Mars doesn't want to be. Or wild ass Mars is the father, but doesn't want to be seated in the husband-father role as the husband already is (with the other three children the client has together).

Let me stop for now before I write a book. My friend/colleague thinks all will end well, with the actual father being the husband anyway. I'm not so optimistic. What do you think? (Thanks!)

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Helo, kokoguy!

I must say that this question has left me with my mouth open.
I am really not a moralistic type (and am aware that many members here on forum think that my approach when it comes to certain issues is even overly liberal) but here I'm actually shocked. The first thing that I would do in such a case (if a person was to ask me for an astrological reading) would be to advise her against forming the question in such a manner and to do another, much better, analysis of the whole situation herself. And by this I primarily mean- to question her own attitude and expectations.

I am not fond of abortions but I can't say that I "generally disapprove" with them (I choose to leave that choice to those who face critical situations). Personally, I could never do such a thing but I did have clients in "similar" situations and we did discuss them from the astrological point of view. Still, the style of this question sounds intolerably casual to me, I must say.

What does "will it hinder or help" part actually mean? How can a child either help or hinder anything in the first place?
I'm pretty sure that a 15 days old baby cannot help her much in her career! The scary thing is that, indeed, when examined in this manner, the child could be seen as an obstacle! But that surely isn't the kind of vocabulary anyone would would want to use in a situation where a healthy woman is expecting a healthy baby, is it?!
It is, of course, not the time to say this (and there would be no use either) but, it would have been so much better if this woman had taken care of all this in advance. She is 30yo and has 3 children already, you're mentioning her career so i'm guessing she is at least literate too if not well educated- being surprised like this and thinking the situation over in this manner -sounds very, very stupid (and I'm sorry I have to say this).
She's at the precipice of some major and positive changes in her life, especially her career, but she's just discovered that she's pregnant
I'm very sad to hear this - having a child should actually be a positive change and a beautiful event!!!

Now, my impressions aside- from the astrological point of view; what it is that she expects to hear? She surely does know that another baby means more obligations and that being a single mom of 4 will most likely prevent her from achieving some of her previously set professional goals; we do not need a chart to tell us that! How else could this child spoil the fun for her? (at this point I hate to even start thinking about the possible reasons).
People decide to give birth to sick children, people unfortunately lose their children...but, does this mean that the children who are sick are actually hindering their parent's life and their professional careers?
Where did the genuine idea of parenting, giving and sacrifice go?!

This is a question that only she can answer in my opinion! If she wants to have a baby then she wants to love a child, then she wants to be a mother and knows that it is a huge privilege to have 4 children. If, on the other hand, she does not want to have a child (again, it would have been much better if she had thought of it before), she will most probably be disappointed by the fact that her career is not moving forth and unhappy that she has another child in her home. Here I won't even bother putting my thoughts into words.

Staying pregnant at the age of 30something with someone whom she cannot even identify and in a situation where she already has 3 children is the most stupid thing a grown up woman can do but, what has happened has happened- she can't just "discard" a child based on an astrological reading that says that a kid might be lousy at school, blond or with no talent for sports. Needless to add, parents often have to go through even harder moments with and because of their children.
Personally, Ii would categorically refuse to answer this question and would never take part in this situation because it would basically put me in a position to tell this woman that the child she is currently carrying under her skin might never live up to her expectations, or might not be worth giving birth to. And that is not something that we are allowed to do, is it!? That is something that most of us could never do!

I think that this woman needs only two things now- to gather herself and to do a very simple math.
3+1 is four = she will soon have four children (unless she decides not to have four children) and she can easily learn what it actually means and how it might or will affect her career.
I have nothing against "open marriages" (I actually think that a piece of paper that everything seems to be spinning around is an overrated administrative tool) but she doesn't even know who the father is. That is hardly a 21st century pickle!

Then she needs to realise that being a parent is a huge obligation and that it should never "happen" again- she cannot undo what has been done this time but she could make sure not to repeat such mistakes again. Not only for the sake of her career (that is the least important part), or even for the sake of the child that she is about to give birth to but also for the sake of her other 3 kids- her family.
This is about bringing a decision based on facts and in accordance with her own system of values. When she puts everything together, she will know what she has to do- there is no need why she would have to pull another person, an astrologer in this case, into this story by putting such a heavy burden onto their back; that is- by asking them to decide on her behalf whether she should actually make an abortion.
The whole situation is a result of pretty much iresposible actions and I can't help but to see this question as yet another attempt to throw hot potato into someone else's lap by asking them to decide for her. The astrologer cannot give birth to her baby or make the list of pro's and con's for her.

The answer hidden in the future is actually very simple- being a parent is very hard. But it is also a very noble and beautiful thing. Nothing ever goes smoothly but the astrologers cannot advise their clients against having children solely upon the idea (or promise) that their children might eventually get sick, let alone spoil their professional plans. With three children already, i'm sure that she knows more about parenting and troubles as well as beautiful moments that come with it than most of us here do.

Cheers,

aglaya
Last edited by aglaya on Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Will this child help or hinder my life?

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Thanks for answering. I do agree that she's put herself in quite a bind and the fallen moon in the 12th house demonstrates this. She knows she's screwed up. But she does have a choice, which is the nature of having a society that permits abortions. (I am pro-choice, but I know, from personal experience, that abortion changes everything.) So considering her ability to choose, I think she's weighing a couple different issues as the chart shows: the obvious selfish angle of her career vs. motherhood and how it will affect her marriage. I think the latter issue is the bigger one, actually. If this were a traditional marriage, it would be easy: it would most likely destroy it. This isn't a traditional arrangement. Of course, the first impulse is to call forth a moralistic tone and say that the child's welfare is paramount. But considering that she legally and at least socially has a choice, then the child's welfare isn't necessarily paramount. So I do think it's legitimate question for her to ask. I also don't think the astrologer has to answer in favor of abortion, per se. If an astrologer were to answer that the child would be a hindrance, that does not perforce mean that she needs to abort this child as much as go into this situation with her eyes open--knowing that despite her open marriage, she could lose her husband (as maybe this horary intimates) or she would have to broaden her definition of her family to include her boyfriend who could be the father. Right now, she doesn't know and she could abort not knowing anything, as is her right.

I get that you don't like the question (and that's fair), but that doesn't mean the question isn't both radical/readable (as I think it is) or warranted. I don't know how fair it is (to only paraphrase you and perhaps incorrectly) to say "suck it up" and move on. That's just it: as a 21st century woman, she doesn't have to. So given that, how else would you look at this issue? If we can answer if a woman is pregnant, why can't we answer about the consequences of that pregnancy?

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WOW

I consider myself a really open minded kind of guy, I don't consider myself moralistic whatsoever but this has really shocked me!

Just to be clear, the horary is really asking "will this child help me or hinder me, should I just abort it?"

Kinda crazy.

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If we can answer if a woman is pregnant, why can't we answer about the consequences of that pregnancy?
Of course we can.
the questions are "should we?" and "what does "consequences means?".

Consequences can mean - "will the fetus have a malformation" but apparently this is not the case here.

Consequences can mean - will this be a "good" children? and I really hope this is not the case.

So, from the technical point of view I would say that the question is not well formed, as, at least to me, it is not clear what information she is asking for, and what it is the purpose of the soul that should be fulfilled.

From the moral point of view of the "should we answer", and yes, moral is such a dirty word nowadays but still a important one, I don?t think this horary should be answered in the current form.

Not because I have anything against abortion as I do not. If I was her friend I would probably advise her to abort. But as an astrologer, I believe that she is using astrology to try to avoid responsibility on the matter, and I think this shows both on the phrasing of the question as in the chart itself.

Of course I may have misunderstood the situation completely, but as you see, your post have raised more than one eyebrown, so I hope you see that we are not being "moralistic"... this particular question is very sensitive and maybe you should reflect about it.

And, of course, astrologers always have the right to refuse a question. Once I received a question in the likes of "is my partner with cancer really with cancer?" but I REALLY didn?t want to answer that!!!

It may also be noteworthy the situation of mercury, the astrologer?s ruler in this chart.

Best regards and I hope this helps in some way.
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

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Thank you, yuzuru. But again, note the question is not whether I should abort the fetus, which, I agree, would be abdicating her own responsibility. I also take note of the condition of the astrologer as highlighted by the combust Mercury (and the partner.) It's partly why I brought the question here. I do feel that I'm too close to the issue because I believe her situation is difficult whether she has this baby or not. I'm more bothered by the consequences, which in this case is an honest appraisal of what this child can bring. And no, I don't believe all children are gifts at any time. It is wholly possible that two people may be ill-prepared to care for a special needs child. This is why doctors have made this information available to the general public pre-natally. Once known, the parents can either steel themselves for a lifetime of hard work or choose not to do so. You're also right to point out that this is a different case than that, but only in details, not overall. The question is whether this child will help or hinder my circumstances? This poses different nuances that have hints of a moral issue, if the question is only about whether to abort a child or not. But she may not do so. In fact, a chart can reveal whether she will and is likely. So what, indeed, becomes the consideration against judgment, except a moralistic one that has not been explicitly stated? I think she mainly wants to know, as I said, what it will "cost" her to have this child, but not necessarily in terms of money? The benefits may be great, but right now I don't think she can see them. Likewise, as I explained, she may fear, rightly, that carrying this term may be more than she or her marriage can bear? Is that true? That's what I believe this horary is really asking. The framing of the question may not be too your liking or unnerving, but I think it asks ultimately what she wants to know, not singularly decide.

But I am shocked by the reactions of this forum, actually. It's not because of anyone's politics as I don't feel judged that way nor do I hear outrage or anything that dramatic. For me, this question is of the same consequence as when someone came to Lilly about the nature and possible timing of a severe and life-threatening illness. He wasn't judging whether someone should kill themselves or whether they should just go off and die. It was facing their life circumstances openly. This is at the heart of stoicism. I think that's the heart of this question, too. For instance, if she asked, "How will this child prove a blessing in my life?," may sound better and more palatable to our ears, but if the chart doesn't testify to blessings, is the news any better? I don't think so.

So I understand the unnerving quality of the question, because it can strike one as so casual, I believe has been said, and cold. But does that invalidate the question?

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Hello Kokoguy

This is a really interesting topic, and one that really gets us contemplating.

I read it earlier and did some thinking about it then, and have re-read it now and I'm still thinking. That's a good thing, though it's not entirely helpful to you :???: :P

I wonder if the question is a bit too long-term? I mean, it depends on what the querent's meaning is of the question, which can't really be conveyed, I don't think, in short form. What I'm getting at is the broadness or narrowness of focus of the querent's question. How can a horary chart answer whether a child will help or hinder, since the question could be trying to cover a period of, what, 18 or more years?

On the other hand, I imagine that you discussed it with her, and didn't just dive in to doing a chart, as what you've written in this thread shows that you're being thoughtful, measured and aware. So I can see how the chart could be perfectly valid from that angle.

On a lighter note, the only thing that shocked me is that Aglaya was shocked :D Aglaya is normally the one doing the shocking, and you've stolen her thunder. This is the real 21st century pickle :)

Regards

H.

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No, handn, that's very helpful actually and worth consideration. Trust me, this horary is not easy for me. But it brought up some thorny 21st century issues for me related to marriage, openness, women's reproductive rights, etc in ways that astrologers may not have had to deal with in the past.

And you're right. The horary came at the end of an hour long consultation where the issue surfaced in her natal chart, but not directly in the form of a pregnancy. I DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT! I saw it as more specific woes in her married life. This struck me as odd as she's in an open marriage, so my imagination was stretched as to what that could be. Then she said and then I realized the nature of that dilemma. We talked about what she wanted to ask and this is what she settled on.

No intention to steal anyone's thunder, as I'd love to give it back, but I thought the thoughtful people of this forum would appreciate this pickling question. I'm glad I'm not disappointed.

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7th ruler combust is an issue, and so is the 10th house Saturn peregrine/retro (making this a forum issue too, most likely). Lilly says that Saturn (or Mars) afflictive in the 10th makes the astrologer not get credit by the question.

I didn't really read through the other replies, but obviously there are many indications of a male child, if that is something she is wondering, by the way.

I agree that the querent needs to figure this out on her own, but divination is likely the only way to ask about whether or not you might regret something later. I've asked regret questions before, in regards to quitting a job, and the chart showed that the job was supportive of me and would be a mistake to quit, which it was. I don't really think it's a frivolous question, it's an important life decision. However, I don't see how a child "helps" your life. If anything, a mother should be the one to "help" the child, as they are the one who supports them, teaches them, etc. If you are expecting a child to be helpful to you in some way, you'd think that the previous three children would have been a good gauge of what to expect. Motherhood is not exactly easy. Maybe she meant whether or not the child would enrich her life? Perhaps I am being judgmental, but it seems very selfish to expect something out of the child before it is even born. The entire situation is very unhealthy, in my opinion, and the chart is only expressing this. Even though she's in the 4th, her primary sig is self-involved, or in her own dream world, IMO, I've seen Jupiter in Pisces this way time and time again.
I suspected that she may angle more toward an early termination of the child as the ruler of the 5th house, Mars, is applying to a square to the Sun (who Mars receives) as the Sun is also tenanted in the house where he is exalted and that Mars rules.
I don't think of the 5th house as an exaltation place for the Sun, since Sun has joy in the 9th, unless you mean that the 5th house is ruled by the sign of his exaltation (Aries). I am not sure what you mean, especially since the Sun is actually in the 6th house here based on the 5 degree orb of the next house. Mars does not receive Sun, it rejects Sun in Taurus, the sign of its detriment. Sun receives Mars (and I would look more to the Sun as the father vs. Saturn - Sun gives life, Saturn takes it). I think the boyfriend might be the father, since the 7th ruler is being combust by the Sun and the Sun receives Mars. Mercury is completely powerless here - retro and combust.

Mars is a peregrine malefic, and so I'd suppose we'd want it to receive others to be less difficult (it does receive the Moon). Maybe I am the only non-combust astrologer in the room (Mercury combust), but I will state bluntly that I see this child as a burden, and that was the question. Whenever a significator is represented as an ill-dignified malefic (although it is received by the Sun), it makes one wonder about how great it is for a querent. It would at least signify a lot of difficulty. It's a night chart, so its heat is lessened (sect), but it's still peregrine and slow, and a square from the Sun is a difficult aspect. Were this a job or other query, would we recommend the job to the querent? The Moon is especially important, and we see it in the 12th house and with essential debility. That doesn't seem to be a good influence and would not recommend the question/outcome, especially since the Moon is indicative of motherhood. Her primary sig is also applying to oppose Saturn in the 10th, which makes me wonder if career issues will be jeopardized or some other life goal. Mercury is also her 10th ruler, and so the 10th ruler is combust. The 9th house ruler is the Sun and Mars is in the 9th, which makes me think about a lack of freedom also, but maybe there is a religious issue in regards to abortion.

I'd check the PoF too. If Mars afflicts the PoF, that might be more indication of this child being a burden on her life and unwanted. What child wants to be born into such a situation?

I realize that some take it as an act of murder, but our charts have meaning based on our time of birth for a reason - that is likely when we are given real life. Maybe I am wrong, but I have my personal reasons, and I see abortion as sometimes necessary and best for all those involved. Anyway, I wish them all the best and I hope that whatever is decided has a pleasant outcome.

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Curious that Mercury has a score of +8 in your program. Is that via Lilly's point scale?

Face/Term = 3
Retro = -5
Slow = -2
Combust = -5
6th house = -2

I got -11, if I am calculating it right.

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Thank you, Tanit. Yes, you're correct. I wrote it wrong. Sun receives Mars by rulership, while Mars rejects the Sun in its place of detriment. And you were also right to interpret what I meant: the Sun has exaltation by the sign on the the cusp of the 5th, but not its joy. That actually doesn't mean much. I know the Sun would technically be in the 6th, but I believe it fits better in the 5th by its signfication.

I do appreciate your analysis and it confirms much of what I thought. The Part of Fortune is at 27 Taurus 29, which only forms a trine to Saturn and square to Neptune, but I hardly see that as testimony for much other than misfortune. What is significant is that the moon will be applying to an opposition to the part of fortune, which again doesn't augur well for the mother's fortune.

Of one thing I am certain is the self-absorbed nature of the question and it is aptly symbolized by Jupiter in Pisces in his domicile. She'll be convinced she's right either way, but I think what gives her pause and bears witness to even why this question was even asked is her sense of the long term consequences of her actions (Saturn). He signifies the halting and irreversible turning of HER present dreams. This isn't a crime, though I would want her to keep the baby. What's more, I think she knows she's correct in what she's sensing.

As for the baby, don't you think there's some modicum of favor for the child, despite being signified by a peregrine malefic as it is beholding the ascendant? I know it's not much, but I'm looking at everything.

And fwiw, from what I've gleaned from the mother, the child, if born, could help the mother as a testimony to the power and possibility of open marriage as they are active proponents of that lifestyle. It could be a proof of concept, if the marriage were to hold. (Love with no boundaries, fitting for a smug Asc. ruler.) The irony of this as reflected in this chart is not lost on me, but I don't take it as my job to judge her beliefs as much as weigh (again, not judge) the consequence of her actions.

This doesn't mean I don't reject questions. I do, but this one I took because I couldn't see where she was doing something morally or legally wrong. It's her body, after all. She could see this baby as proof of concept or just too much for her dreams. The truth is in the chart, imo.

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Tanit wrote:Curious that Mercury has a score of +8 in your program. Is that via Lilly's point scale?

Face/Term = 3
Retro = -5
Slow = -2
Combust = -5
6th house = -2

I got -11, if I am calculating it right.
No, I have to fix those, so I have to use a different page to get the right calculations. They got messed up a few weeks ago in a computer upgrade. They're not right. I'm Dorothean with my triplicities.