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Sexual desire
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kannan



Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Posts: 97

Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny/Eddy/Margherita/Tanit

Thank you all for your inputs . I give below some clarification to the extent my knowledge goes
-He is not the Gay type. May be he has faminine tastes.
-The wife is not at all dominant or aggressive but soft natured and sympathetic/tolerant. She is hoping that one day a good sexual relationship will dawn on them. On his part the husband feels guilty in not being able to satisfy his wife inspite of his efforts to do so. In this situation he does not know what to do,except to approach some medical consultants.

My question is whether they will continue to be friends liking each other without sexual preferences ,as Tanit put it, or any legal seperation can be thought of . The wife however is not thinking in this line.

Regards

Kannan
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see that I was totally in the wrong direction about the wife. Interesting though to see that Margherita and I got to the same conclusion using different methods.

Since ten years from time to time I try to use only the classical planets. Just since a few days I again said to myself I should try it with only these but now I strongly feel the temptation to use the three modern planets again Confused .

Quote:
My question is whether they will continue to be friends liking each other without sexual preferences ,as Tanit put it, or any legal seperation can be thought of . The wife however is not thinking in this line.
That's hard to tell, I personally/morally wouldn't support a separation for this reason but I think that the Saturn transit over the wife's Mars, Saturn, Moon in Libra could indicate a period of feelings of melancholy. Note that Saturn now is transiting square his Ascendant and last year was near his IC. It indicates that the problem now manifests as being a problem. When I notice the melancholical effects of Saturn I feel I should not give in but that I have to give an 'antidote' by being in nature, going sporting and abstaining from things like alcohol and sugar.

I'm afraid I can't see much more through the chart and I feel that trying to look for more I would enter the realm of 'guessing' and this would do more harm than well. I hope he has a nice birthday Smile.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
I see that I was totally in the wrong direction about the wife. Interesting though to see that Margherita and I got to the same conclusion using different methods.


It's strange. A Scorpio Ascendant with the Moon with Mars and Saturn which gives a quiet temperament. Moreover Mars, ruler of the Ascendant is very hot, being retrograde, and Moon the same, having left the FM since 2 days; both hot for quadrant.

and where we should see these gentle manners in the chart? strange, strange.....

margherita
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Dione T



Joined: 13 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The wife as I see her n the chart, is of a subtle, implicit sexuality. Fantasies, implicit notions, words unspoken, sentiment/sex brooding. Yet quite a drifter physically. A drifter that wants to be *conquered* from the inside. Perhaps conquered is a word with too much negative semiotics but I mean it as an immense union. But she also has Pluto conjunct her moon and as much as pluto is a modern planet, I've seen it act quite powerfully in relation to the lights. Power games in a deeper emotional level may float her boat. I doubt she likes to be the domineer, too much 12th and Pluto affects her moon, not her sun, with a conjunction, not a square.
She may look very good, even upfront outwardly but, when it comes to the real thing, she wants fantasy, perhaps mystery, an internal sensation of "he wants me real bad" and a more aggressive/domineering man. Saturn restricts her too. That moon is a coquette and 'what people say', trying to act gently and 'properly', he may like dirtier talks. Btw, I think we can see it as a fact that no matter what, she will still be more sexually 'powerful' than him.

He is different. Both his sexual planets are in male signs and they form a sextile, I think he is pretty male-ish. He has kinks but his kinks are different from his wife's. Inconjunctly different. Some of the kinks they hopefully share but they lack the way to communicate their common kinks to each other. There is good chance he is too shy to admit he likes certain games/toys or -worse- he may even be ignorant about it. And he goes slow in building momentum.

At this point we should address the physical factors. A guy can be on his own or with other women very sexual but having a grossly fat woman (whom he may love a lot) can kill his sexual prowess, or he may like huge boobs and she has small and flat ones (or vice versa).
A woman that is very sensual with other guys may have the unluckiness of having a husband she loves but he is medically "poor" in size. Such an unlucky incident can cause her to abstain from sex and before you jump into "size doesn't matter", yes it does. She may love him forever but she will try to avoid his 3 inches 'love'.
He may feel bad about his size (or something else that relates to sex) and that can stop him from wanting sex overall.
Discretion and realism mixed with art. Can we know for sure, whether he is not thrilled due to some aesthetic reasons? Are we sure there is no actual medical reason stopping him? Sugar blood, diabetes, etc? Is he under medication that may hinder his sexual potential?

My suggestion would be - assuming he is healthy: toys he likes and more implementation of the potential of their mercuries. Sex is primarily a mental procedure for both sexes, is brain function. He has gemini asc, mars in leo, check if he has certain physical dislikes that mess with his brain sexual functions.
As a single glance, he is more superficial sexually than she is.
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aglaya



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, al!

As Eddy already mentioned we have touched this topic in another thread but I believe that it is always welcome to have a place to discuss such issues since such questions are fairly common.

Now, when I first took up learning Astrology (and I was about 20 at the time), I remember how sad I was when i discovered that my Venus and Mars were not forming an aspect because the literature was full of warnings - no aspects= doomed in love; a benevolent aspect=femme fatale. Laughing
This is the 4th chart in row with a benevolent Mars/Venus aspect that I'm looking at and that actually belongs to a person with reduced sexual desire.
Of course, this still doesn't mean that women are not attracted to him- his wife obviously wants him! Wink

But, it is definitely not that simple, is it'!

margherita wrote:
But it could not be this man is a gay? What about other women?

This is Ptolemy - I mentioned in another thread:

"The oriental and diurnal positions of Mars and Venus also contribute to more masculine and more reputable qualities; and their occidental and vespertine positions to qualities more feminine, and more sordid."

This is what every astrologer repeated. This is Antonio da Montulmo talking about luminaries (but it is the same, they are mentioned by Ptolemy too in the same chapter):

if they are in feminine signs, and in feminine quadrants, and occidental the native have effeminate manners...


Incidentally, i have at least 4 very dear friends who are gay (they're all men) and a few more charts of gay people whom I have had a chance to talk about their sexual life (as an astrologer, of course! Smile ) and I have been through these Ptolemy's aphorisms (as well as some other "rules" left by other traditional authors) many, many times and I have found them to be insufficient to say the least.
When I say this, I'm not suggesting that the traditional authorities were wrong Smile , of course, but I believe that it is worth keeping one thing in mind and that is- their explanations couldn't have been very straightforward and completely open in the first place, could they? Or even detailed enough! Because, if they were, then the books would have most probably be banished!
So, we certainly need more than just this!
After reading a few books written by our contemporaries, i'm not sure that Modern astrology has managed to untangle these questions (homosexuality, lack of sexual desire etc.) entirely either. Quite the opposite, gay population often labels them "discriminatory" and maybe they're right- maybe the society simply expects us to forget about the "hetero/homo" part to simply provide useful informations about the love life of the Native. That would be a fair request.

But, still, how come we so often fail to notice that a person is, for instant gay or, even more importantly- assume that he/she might be gay though he/she isn't?

In another thread, i have mentioned my impressions after analyzing the charts of some gay people and, apparently, Deb's impression is quite similar (I don't remember if anyone else mentioned the same thing in the thread) and I'll briefly repeat it here- if the charts shows strong promise for stressful events caused by the Native's private life, then they could mean anything from "she will be crucified for having an affair with a married man" to "he will be crucified for being gay". At he same time- no signs of stressful events or tensions can be found in both the charts of gay and hetero people. Deb mentioned something very important in that thread :

Deb wrote:
I seem to remember Kim [Farnell] saying that she found no reliable indicators of homosexuality and considered it, like gender itself, to be something that the horoscope is neutral about. However, although it is hard for me to give concrete examples, I have personally noticed signatures of unconventiality in the natal charts I have worked with of older people - but maybe because they had a harder time being socially open than the modern genration (?)


The only thing I have to support this idea is a list of less then 10 dates of birth of gay people but, the truth is- to me it seems that it is exactly how the things work.

So, back to your quotes, margherita- my main impressions are that not only is the placement of masculine planets in feminine signs (in the chart of a male person) a very weak indicator of homosexuality but, it can very often be found in the charts of people who also look pretty masculine. Which makes me wonder (again!) what exactly did the traditional authors have in mind when they were talking about effeminate manners.
Many times I have noticed that people who have equally stressed masculine and feminine signs in their chart actually have a very well balanced behaviour and stable relationships. Masculine principle can often help women and it isn't always very obvious either. (Just think of all those beautiful women in the history who were capable of creating as well as destroying kingdoms; who actually used their beauty and femininity as their most powerful weapons- that is a great example of a masculine/feminine mix of influences; beauty as weapon).

Similarly, Saturn can help in keeping a cold-headed attitude. You will hardly see a woman with Saturn/Venus aspect jumping from one relationship into another but, with a benevolent aspect and additional conformations of positivity in the chart, such woman is more likely a "hard-to-get" type of woman then a "nun".

Similarly (or not!)- the core of the problem and its manifestation do not need to appear in the same "clothes". A good example (that most likely involves some negative saturnian influence is nymphomania= experts say that one huge percent of women who suffer from this condition are actually frigid. So, we have a great example of excess sexual activity and uncontrollable sexual desire that is actually divorced from the feeling of joy.


But, in this particular case, maybe we are just talking about a medical problem- does he not feel interested or is he impotent (impotency does not exclude sexual desire, it usually manifests as a techical obstacle and I believe no further explanations are required here)?


Last edited by aglaya on Sun May 02, 2010 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
and where we should see these gentle manners in the chart? strange, strange...
Jupiter on the Ascendant and Venus on IC could give the good sides for a peaceful house life. Because of the square between these two planets I first had believed them to be less good, in the sense of desire for luxury. Combined with the oppositions to the husband's Sun and Mars I expected more negativity.

Her Mars, Saturn, Moon in XII perhaps should not be related to the relationship but rather to the 'hidden enemies' or social isolation. Although I don't look at houses very often, I found something in a friend's chart that indicated his 'hidden enemies' and in relation with his XIIth house which seemed quite convincing. Perhaps the problem is more her's after all. I mean in the sense that the issue bothers her the most.
Quote:
My friend is not excited about sexual life but his wife's expectations are shatterd.
So perhaps he sees it less as a problem than she does and could find more peace with it? When I look at the birth locations being the same in India, I wonder to what extent cultural matters play a role. Is it the sexual desire as it is or is it rather in the direction of the need to get children from a social environmental point of view? If the latter is the case then I can imagine that the sextile of the MC to Mars in detriment would not be so positive. Combined with Saturn and Moon all in XII could emphasize the fear of social isolation or even exclusion.

Sun in V (house of children) in inconjunct with Saturn could indicate a problem with childlessness. Note that in Indian astrology the Sun is a malefic. And as far as I know in classical Western astrology the Sun isn't that wonderfull either. At least not the 'I' and the 'ego' that Alan Leo made out of it. If her chart would have been drawn in sidereal signs, the Sun would be in her detriment in sidereal Aquarius. But if the systems would interchange so easily then it would make the astrology rather a cultural product than my preferred natural astrology.

Now I reread my post I'm afraid that with my emphasis on childlessness I could just have made one of my guesses which I feared to do Confused.

aglaya wrote:
I remember how sad I was when i discovered that my Venus and Mars were not forming an aspect because the literature was full of warnings
I recognise this. The only planet in my chart that seems to perform well is the unaspected one Surprised.
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddy wrote:
Jupiter on the Ascendant and Venus on IC could give the good sides for a peaceful house life. Because of the square between these two planets I first had believed them to be less good, in the sense of desire for luxury. Combined with the oppositions to the husband's Sun and Mars I expected more negativity.

Her Mars, Saturn, Moon in XII perhaps should not be related to the relationship but rather to the 'hidden enemies' or social isolation. A


I agree and don't agree, but yes, there is something more, you are right -

jupiter at the Ascendant gives some sanguine note, even if it is retrograde too and this makes him hotter than its basic nature. I would say she is a choleric/sanguine - you can choose in which order.

But Moon cannot only be limited to enemies because it is in the 12th, it's a part of the temperament. And Satun has a clear rulership on soul (this is with Morinus software) - I use the Renaissance variant including the temperament.




About traditional attribution of feminine-masculine qualities this is the standard method used and checked by everybody.
It is truth there were women in every time that reigned and created and destroyed kingdoms, but they did their way iwith feminine manners. For a woman it is not necessary to use masculine qualities to have success, we can do our way and very well Smile

margherita-
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Dione T



Joined: 13 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Eddy wrote:
Quote:
aglaya wrote:
I remember how sad I was when i discovered that my Venus and Mars were not forming an aspect because the literature was full of warnings

I recognise this. The only planet in my chart that seems to perform well is the unaspected one Surprised.

My applying trine between my Venus and Mars, works exactly as it should. Bringing ease, quality and numbers in the matter. Perfect benevolence, luck and abundance; sexual prosperity is more descriptive. Trines work as promised.

Quote:
aglaya wrote:
Similarly, Saturn can help in keeping a cold-headed attitude. You will hardly see a woman with Saturn/Venus aspect jumping from one relationship into another but, with a benevolent aspect and additional conformations of positivity in the chart, such woman is more likely a "hard-to-get" type of woman then a "nun".

You make an exceptional observance in that! Saturn trine Venus, restricts her slutiness, makes her hard to get. Saturn conjunct Venus makes her deprived, imprisoned. Saturn opposing Venus makes whores or completely deprived sexually and vicious, at the very best illness and social decline via sex and marriage:
Quote:
ὁ Κρόνος Ἀφροδίτην διαμετρῶν πόρνους, ἀσχήμονας, ἀγάμους
ποιεῖ, εἰ δὲ καὶ γήμωσιν, ἐφυβρίστους ἢ ξένας λήψονται ἢ δούλας ἢ
σεσινωμένας, καὶ αὐτοὶ δὲ ἐκτὸς τῶν ἀφροδισιακῶν χαρίτων εἰσίν.

Then again, marrying a foreigner was also considered a social decline back then.
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janeg



Joined: 25 Nov 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at these charts in the sidereal zodiac, the husband has Venus in Taurus trapped in the 12th which, in Vedic astrology, is bed pleasures and in the square of Saturn giving a natural ascetic bent. This is reinforced in the Navamsa which has Saturn and Venus conjunct in Aries (Saturns' Fall and Venus not functioning well) with the Rahu (North Node) which is similar in nature to Saturn (ascetic bent).


And the wife's chart has Mars and Saturn conjunct in the 12th indicating her frustration with bed pleasures. Saturn is in MR with Mercury dispositor in the 5th so her primary concern may be that they will have no children due to her husband's lack of sexual drive.



Looking at the Ashtakavarga totals for the 5th (children) in both charts, they are below average for both natives indicating they are unlikely to have many children; however, the 5th house from Jupiter, in Jupiter's bhindus, have good strength in both charts which would indicate children are possible. As well, Jupiter is in the 1st in both charts and so trine the 5th in both, again indicating children are possible.
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kannan



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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

janeg wrote:
And the wife's chart has Mars and Saturn conjunct in the 12th indicating her frustration with bed pleasures. Saturn is in MR with Mercury dispositor in the 5th so her primary concern may be that they will have no children due to her husband's lack of sexual drive.
.


Janeg

Your are absolutely right . Childlessness is the main concern for both the wife and the family . My own finding also from applying Vedic astrology (KP) shows 'No Children' in either of the horoscopes. Praying God is all they are doing now to overcome the problem

Thank you all for making this thread interesting

Kannan
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hervaro



Joined: 13 May 2009
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I have only looked at the chart of the male, and here are some musings:

Mercury lord 1, representing the person(ality) is in Aries, and so receives Venus lord 5 (sexuality a.o.t.) in her detriment. Venus itself is in Mercurial Gemini and in the 12th of hidden enemies, anxieties, seclusion (definitely going traditional here Smile ). So even when a Gemini ascendant wouldn't necessarily show it (on the contrary, I suppose), there might be a problem with sexuality and other (fun) things. What 's more, Venus also rules the 12th house itself, so sex/pleasure/etc may by themselves be experienced as uncontrollable or inducing anxieties.
To consolidate this in a more modern approach, Venus (widely) trines Pluto, and the Sun opposes Uranus in Scorpio-5: sexuality and pleasures are entangled with dark, hidden and therefore probably uneasiness-inducing elements.
Mercury itself opposes Pluto in 4: parental issues (10-4 axis) throw a veil over personal clarity/audacity (Mercury L1 in Aries-10).
Saturn, the exaltation lord of the 5th, is in his detriment in the 3d of siblings and communication/information-handling. Again showing uneasiness with respect to pleasureable things, besides problems with easy communication...
Following A.T. Mann's logarithmic time scale, Saturn opposes the 9th cusp of conception; hence the person's sexuality is tainted by the way/circumstances his mother conceived of him.

I would understand the situation because of all of this as a mental/psychological problem related strongly to parental and early family conditions...
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hervaro



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Posted: Wed May 05, 2010 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hervaro wrote:

Following A.T. Mann's logarithmic time scale, Saturn opposes the 9th cusp of conception; hence the person's sexuality is tainted by the way/circumstances his mother conceived of him.


Oops, I realise I might give a reference, or some clarification on this!
Tad Mann's LTS (logarithmic time scale) is based on Rodney Collin's view on human life as a cycle of development (physical/emotional/mental/spiritual, in sequence: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140193650/gurdjieffmove-20 ). This was based on G.I. Gurdjieff's teachings.
To put it quite simply: if human life can be represented by a circle comprised of 3 "octaves" (gestation, childhood, maturity), where the beginning of life (conception) and the end of it (death) meet each other, containing *all* of the life lived, then somehow this circle should/could be related to that other circel giving the totality of one's life: the birth chart.
ATMann (:-) seems to have searched for, and found, the correlation, and translated the logarithmic scale of R. Collin into the astrological circle.
Which results in (asc correlating with/representing birth, as we know) the cusp of the 9th to represent conception; the MC representing mother realising she is with child; houses 11 and 12 growing towards asc/birth; asc equals age 0yrs; at IC (if houses of equal length) person has already age 3,5yrs; Desc age is 23+ yrs; etc.
A. T. Mann has elaborated on this scheme in several publications; the first was this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/1843336987/sr=1-1/qid=1273082797/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1273082797&sr=1-1
(yes, I am a fan of A. T. Mann Tongue Out but to continue with the thread:)
thus, the sign on cusp 9, tight aspects to it, and the condition of its ruler, can be read as the conceptual (?) circumstances - that is: how the mother experienced the sexual intercourse resulting in conception! This then, gets imprinted on the fertilized egg, and delivers the blueprint for one 's creative/spiritual position and activities in later life (creative including the use/manifestation of sexual energy).

I hope neither the content of this, nor the awfully large url's are annoying!
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