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Just an update on the Nick Clegg data displayed by the Astrological Association of the UK website. Roy Gillett has got back to me and confirmed the chart displayed as 00.56am on the AA website is an error and the 5.56am time is correct. So the charts I have already put up here are the correct ones.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

62
A win for him still looks possible. Did try to judge if a coalition gov't was likely; the one weakness in Clegg's chart is his 10th house, it's weaker than average which means it's possible it may not have enough power to make him PM. Gordon Brown's chart does have a tertiary change into the 8th (partner resources) so maybe Lib Dem/Labour coalition.
Political realities in Britain make an outright win for the Liberal Democrats almost impossible due to the eccentricity of the UK voting system. Even if the Liberal Democrats get the most votes they have almost no chance of getting the most seats. The UK 'First Past the Post' or simple plurality system favours the two traditional parties as they have concentrated support in distinct geographical areas which guarantee them numerous 'safe seats'. Parties with popular support that is not geographically concentrated like the Liberal Democrats are disadvantaged by the electoral system.

This is a major reason why Nick Clegg has stated that agreement on electoral reform is a prerequisite for any coalition partner. This is a problem for the Conservatives as they are strong supporters of the current electoral system. While David Cameron might offer proportional representation for English local government (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland already have it) and the UK upper House this is unlikely to be enough for Clegg. The question remains whether Cameron might agree to a referendum on electoral reform? If not a coalition between the Liberal Democrats and Conservatives seems unlikely.

At the same time Clegg has also stated that while coalition with Labour is possible it would only be with someone else other than Gordon Brown as Labour party leader. He has indicated it would be unacceptable to British public opinion to form a coalition with Labour with Gordon Brown as Prime Minister if Labour obtained the lowest popular vote of the three parties.

Meanwhile Brown's has had a public relations fiasco that has undermined his position still further.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

Ironically, Labour's best way of staying in power might be for Brown to resign as leader after the election.

So will the Tories accept a referendum on electoral reform and the possibility of coalition government forever? Or will Labour sacrifice Brown to stay in power? What if both parties call Clegg's bluff? :???:
Last edited by Mark on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

63
Ahh..I see, we have basically the same system here; often the total # of votes one party gets is not representative of the seats they hold due to each province being guaranteed a certain # of seats.

Given that, Clegg's chart looks as if his position will improve, Brown's worsen and Cameron looks stuck so I guess a Labour/Lib Dem coalition. With both Brown's dasa lords entering new signs gotta think his status definitely changes ... from what you say, that would either be an outright loss or a resignation.

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UK Elections 2010

After my failed predictions in the US elections 2004 Bush vs Kerry I was very disappointed. :( I had put a lot of time and brain into many charts of the candidates and their surroundings. I swore that if my prediction (Kerry) was wrong I would completely overhaul my techniques.

That?s what I did. Not only did I revise the technique, but also the way to approach a prediction. What I hadn?t considered enough was that a Bush victory was not the same as a Kerry victory. Bush was the President in charge, just like Gordon Brown is the incumbent Prime Minister now. Clegg and Cameron are challengers.

To predict a Brown victory under the circumstances seems rather silly of me! :) Even the Guardian has turned away from him. Bernadette Brady in her April Newsletter sees the two young Crown Princes forming a coalition.

But when I apply the technique that I found that fit the election results of Bush / Kerry and Angela Merkel?s re-election - Brown is the winner. He is in tune with the planets on Election day; the other two candidates are not.
Actually this is not a new technique, it?s just perhaps an unorthodox way of looking at charts.

What I did is to compare the Transit Chart on Election Day with the candidates? Secondary Progressed charts: are there similar patterns or sequences of planets? ? Very simple, just the visual impression, what jumps at you.
What is unusual is to compare Transits with Secondary Progressions ? not with the fixed birth chart. Why do it that way? Maybe the Secondary Progressions reflect the owner of the birth chart AND the present time. Transits represent the present, too.

http://bildupload.sro.at/p/349369.html
________________________________
The picture shows 4 charts:
1. Transits on Election day in the evening
2. Brown?s Secondary Progressed Chart (Angles are Mean Quotidian, they move ca. 1? per day) at the lower left.
3. Cameron?s Secondary Progressed Chart at the upper right.
4. Clegg?s Secondary Progressed Chart at the lower right

What jumped at me immediately was the similarity of the Election Day chart with Brown?s Secondary Progressed Chart (Charts 1 and 2). Both Charts have

- Sun in Taurus (well, Brown is very close)
- Mercury retrograde in Taurus
- Venus in Gemini
- Jupiter in Pisces
- Saturn in Virgo

- Both charts have an applying Moon ? Neptune conjunction

:o :o :o

The other candidates have no such similarities. Clegg?s Secondary Progressed Chart in itself looks not too bad (VE on MC, JU on AC).
Cameron?s Secondary Progressed Chart is a disaster: MA conjunct UR oppose Saturn exactly.

That would mean a coalition Liberals-Labour if Labour does not get a majority. Clegg has said though that Brown would have to leave if he was to form a coalition with Labour.

Brown has a lot of Moon-Mars in his present charts, so he will fight as he said.

I admit I just have two cases (Bush/Kerry, Merkel) ? no statistical proof.

************************************************

A rough look at Transits of the outer planets in relation to the Radix Charts of the candidates looks good for Gordon Brown, and not very good for David Cameron and Nick Clegg. Since Cameron and Clegg are about the same age, Jupiter on Election Day will be conjunct their radix Saturns! Not a sign of a victory.

Cameron has transiting Saturn near his radix ASC and Uranus near the DESC. ? Not good for a crown prince. :,

Brown has transit Pluto on his radix MC and transit Jupiter conjunct radix Venus. On top of that, he has a Jupiter Return and a Saturn Return this spring! ? Looks like he will stay in power.

Best regards
Ren?

(I am assuming that the Birth times given in the thread are correct. Brown 08:40, Cameron 05:55, Clegg 05:56)

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A rough look at Transits of the outer planets in relation to the Radix Charts of the candidates looks good for Gordon Brown, and not very good for David Cameron and Nick Clegg. Since Cameron and Clegg are about the same age, Jupiter on Election Day will be conjunct their radix Saturns! Not a sign of a victory.

Cameron has transiting Saturn near his radix ASC and Uranus near the DESC. ? Not good for a crown prince.

Brown has transit Pluto on his radix MC and transit Jupiter conjunct radix Venus. On top of that, he has a Jupiter Return and a Saturn Return this spring! ? Looks like he will stay in power.
Hi Rene,

Your analysis seems to be shared by a lot of astrologers. Of course that doesn't mean you are right. Still its good to have some company. :wink: I have recently been directed to these other sites where astrologers are predicting the Brown and Labour will remain in power.

Claire Chandler: http://www.clairechandler.com/2010/04/0 ... n-brown-2/

Dharmaruci: http://astrotabletalk.blogspot.com/2010 ... ction.html

Mandi Lockley: http://www.mandilockley.blogspot.com/

On the other hand Bernadette Brady in her Visual astrology Newsletter for April thinks the fixed stars favour a Conservative-Liberal coaltion.

Several members here have gone that way too. I am sticking with my prediction of a Labour-Liberal coalition emerging based almost exclusively on my analysis of the Ingress chart not on natal charts.

If I am wrong I will like you need to revisit my approach. I think the current Ingress chart has a marked similarity to the last Ingress chart when the UK had a coalition government in 1977. I will discuss that in my next post.

However, for me, getting one astrological prediction right is not convincing in itself. Its a nice ego rush but its not that significant in itself. Random luck could easily deliver that. What is more valuable to me is finding techniques that produce consistently replicatable results in elections. There is no denying multi-party politics are more challenging than two party politics as found in the USA.
(I am assuming that the Birth times given in the thread are correct. Brown 08:40, Cameron 05:55, Clegg 05:56)
Gordon Brown's data is based on his birth certificate so must be fairly reliable. The time for David Cameron is the time given by Annabel Herriot and was related by his Mother. One astrologer (Dharmaruci -see above) has suggested a very late Virgo rising chart for Cameron of 5.51am. However, Cameron's personna seems very Libran to me. According to Roy Gillet of the UK Astrological Association there are two times being proposed for Nick Clegg-5.30am ( from his party office) and 5.56am from an unattributed private source.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

66
As anyone reading this thread will have noticed there is much discussion in Britain right now that the General Election will produce a 'hung parliament' with no party having overall control. A rare event in British politics but common in continental Europe where proportional voting systems are the norm.

Most political analysts think a coalition government is the likely outcome if this occurs. Historically there has actually only been one period even approaching a coalition government in Britain since World War II.

This occured in 1977 when the Liberal Party entered into a pact with the Labour party which had lost its parliamentary majority after a succession of bye election defeats. The pact was announced on March 23rd 1977 and only lasted about 18 months. Its wasn't strictly , a full coalition but it was as close as we have ever had to one in the last 65 years.

I thought the Aries Ingress chart for this period would be interesting to compare with the current Ingress chart and indeed it is! The charts are very similar with the same signs on the angles and the MC ruler (Mercury) combust the Sun.

Here is the ingress chart for 1977:
Image
Here is the current Ingress chart:
Image
In both charts the traditional significator for government (MC ruler) is very weakened by being combust the Sun. I would suggest that this reflects the existing party (Labour) remaining in power despite their inherent weakness. The fourth house domicule ruler is Jupiter. In both charts in a cadent house. I suggest this represents the major opposition party which is the Conservatives. I would delineate the Liberals or Liberal Democrats as symbolised by the Sun in both charts. As there is no exaltation ruler of Sagittarius I would opt for the Sun as the day triplicity ruler of the Fire signs symbolising the second largest opposition party.

There are obviously important differences. Most importantly Mercury forms a trine to the debilitated Saturn Rx in the first chart. In the second chart Mercury is just outside moeity orb by aspect to the Moon making it void of course. Although I would suggest there is an argument the Moon forms a sextile by fixed orb after crossing the sign boundary. This could be delineated as the general election itself and the popular mandate all democratic government requires.

Steven Birchfield has challenged the traditional approach of government =10th house ruler and opposition =4th house ruler(s) for modern parliamentary politics. Its true the traditional association was the 10th house represents the King/Sultan while the 4th house represented his opponents. It can be argued that during a general election all the parties have an equal claim on the MC as they all seek to rule the country. I have given Steven's idea a lot of thought. It is superficially attractive but I feel it has one major difficulty. An Ingress chart is not a chart for just an election campaign. It it cast for a time with an incumbent government/party holds total power. There is therefore an argument that the incumbent administration should be delineated as the 10th house ruler.

Still, if Steven's prediction of a conservative victory is correct I will need to reconsider things. :lol:

He has assigned all three parties to MC rulers. Mercury as domicile and night triplicity ruler to Labour, Saturn as day triplicity ruler to the Conservatives and finally Jupiter as participating triplicity ruler to the Liberal Democrats. If this approach is correct the applying Moon trine to Saturn across the sign boundary will reflect this well.

While I see the clear astrological logic of Steven's prediction I wonder how much the traditional associations of parties fit the planets in this election? Gordon Brown is the oldest leader and has a melancholy, quite dour demeanour. Labour are the current party of the political establishment and Brown has constantly emphasized the dangers of the 'risks' posed by the changes the other parties would introduce. This fits Saturn more than mercury to me. Equally, Cameron is noted for his eloquence and ability to give speeches without notes. At the same time he has been criticised for his 'slipperyness'. That seems very mercurial to me.

I do hope to open a thread following the UK election result which will involve a retrospective of Aries Ingress charts before elections to see which method produces the most consistently reliable results.
Last edited by Mark on Sun May 02, 2010 9:29 pm, edited 7 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

67
Hi, the link for the newsletter of Bernadette Brady:

http://www.zyntara.com/VisualAstrologyN ... il2010.htm

In the beginning of this thread, I said:
With Visual Astrology: Brady also only talks about elections on the US. She says that occidental venus gives supports to the party on power. I personally am not sure of this. Venus irradiates mars, but apparently none of the candidates were on the military. With the moon irradiating Jupiter, I would favor the lost of power by the labor power.
As I was expecting, Brady give up on venus for the UK elections as the cycle of UK elections is not one of 4 years. She sees the oriental Jupiter as a strong crown king.

Only thing that I am not sure is why she says that Saturn "is in exile in the wing of Virgo"
Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com
My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com

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The one thing that strikes me about the ingress chart is Mercury (Asc ruler) besieged by Venus (ruler of 9th) and Sun (ruler of 12th); as if the people feel they are being squeezed by foreign interests and they are angry at parliament (dispositor Mars in 11th) who is seen as paying too much attention to foreign interests (Moon ruling 11th exalted in 9th).

Saturn is exalted in the 1st opposing the 7th house planets; people feeling as if they have the authority (Saturn) to free themselves from being squeezed in this election (Saturn rules 5th of elections).

Based on that, and solely from the ingress chart, I would think the voting public are not going to play the game as usual; the chart seems to be saying they are tired of politics as usual and feel that they have the power to alter things this time around.

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Based on that, and solely from the ingress chart, I would think the voting public are not going to play the game as usual; the chart seems to be saying they are tired of politics as usual and feel that they have the power to alter things this time around.

I agree but then just about everyone in the UK is saying that just now so I wouldn't gain any brownie points for predicting that. Still, as an outsider looking in thats very insightful. :'
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

70
With less than 3 days before the opening of polls in the UK election on thursday I think its time to round up a look at charts with a review of the UK political parties in comparison to transits, secondary progressions and returns. As you may recall from the charts displayed earlier the charts traditionally used for the the Labour and Conservative parties are untimed. The chart for the newer Liberal Democrats is an accurately timed chart. We can therefore do both a Solar and Lunar Return chart for the Liberal Democrats. I am not going to delineate the charts. This is just a reference aid for those wanting to study these charts in more detail.

Conservative party

Transits

The chart below has the transits for the party at the close of polls.
Image
1 Ascendant (Close of Polls) on Conservative party Mars
2 Tr Moon ( Close of polls) conjunct radix Jupiter
3 Tr Neptune conjunct Conservative Party Jupiter
4 Tr Sun conjunct Conservative party Pluto.

Secondary Progresssions to Radix ( half degree orb)

Untimed data makes this very difficult to be certain of connections to the Moon and angles.
Image
1 Progressed Venus opposing Radix Saturn
2 Progressed Jupiter trine Radix Saturn

The Labour party
Image


Transits

1Tr Moon (close of polls) conjunct radix Sun/Venus
2 Tr Mars opposing radix Mercury
3 Tr Venus trine radix Mercury
4 Tr Sun square radix Mercury
5 Tr Jupiter sextile radix Jupiter
6 Tr Mercury sextile radix Saturn
6 Tr POF (close of polls) Square radix Jupiter
7 Tr Ascendant (close polls) square radix Saturn

Secondary Progressions ( Untimed radix)
Image
1 SP Mercury square radix Venus
2 SP Sun sextile Mars


Liberal Democrats
Image
Transits

1 Tr Moon (close of polls) trine radix Moon
2 Tr Moon sextile Jupiter
2 Tr Venus square radix Sun
3 Tr Sun square radix Mercury
4 Tr Mercury Rx trine radix Mars


Secondary Progressions
Image
1 SP Moon sextile radix Moon
2 SP Sun square radix Mars (ASC ruler)
3 SP Venus on radix descendent/7th house
5 SP POF square radix Moon

Solar Return 2010
Image
Lunar Return ( prior to General election)
Image
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

71
Hi all,

very interesting thread with lots of info to digest. Unfortunately I came way too late in to it so not enough time really to make a well thought through analysis with just about 36 hours left, so just a few reflextions after reading thought it all and some brief studies.

First of all I would like to ask anyone who knows the UK system, in case of a minority goverment, can it be voted out by a majority of MP's in a similar way as in a 'modern' democracy? Or can the PM still squat in no. 10 for 5 years before announcing a new election, if it pleases him?

I ask because if the former is true, my first feeling is that it will be a Tory minority gov, and a new election within some time which will make Clegg PM, probably in coalition with a weakened Labour. This is more a (Neptunian) feeling so far then a right down astro analysis.

Further more I am a bit surprised to what extent Neptune not been mentioned in most analysis, especially when talking about the Saturn/Uranus opposition. I see the current quincuns (150deg) to Saturn and Poll Close chart's Mc as very significant, just as the semisextile to Uranus and Poll Ic as well. Like I belive the polls shows a distorted picture and the real result will be quite diverse.

This naturally lead to the question the significance of the Poll Close chart it self. I think it does have a lot of significance, although maybe not in answering the question of who's gonna win the election but rather what may unfold as a result of the choise the UK people will make as a collective. So I would say it would become most usefull to use in understanding what will take place after the election.

There is another chart I would consider to look at for more cluse of the outcome of the election and which I haven't seen here - or elesewhere - the chart for the moment when Brown make public the elections will be on May 6th. Sure one can argue here the time he when to the Queen or gave here the message etc. would be more significant although I see the announcement more as the "birth moment" when the energy was released. If anyone know the time for that event it would be very interesting, even if only as a after study.

Personally I think Clegg has what it takes "but" it's too early for him, and his best move whould be not to get into a coalition with Tory, and I think he's smart enough to catch that - but you never know.

/Joakim

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First of all I would like to ask anyone who knows the UK system, in case of a minority goverment, can it be voted out by a majority of MP's in a similar way as in a 'modern' democracy? Or can the PM still squat in no. 10 for 5 years before announcing a new election, if it pleases him?
Hello Joakim, welcome to the mundane forum. :D

In regards removing a sitting government yes this can be done in a so called 'vote of confidence'. If a government is outvoted in a vote of confidence the convention is that a general election must be called. This occured in 1979 when the then minority Labour Party government lost a vote of confidence. Cameron needs 326 seats to govern as a majority government. If he is a few seats short he could try to rule as a minority government or work with the Ulster Unionist parties. Cameron has already been making overtures in this direction.

The UK traditional convention (backed up by a current parliamentary procedure rules) is that the existing Prime Minister gets first opportunity to form a government. That is Gordon Brown. Normally this isn't an issue as one party has a clear majority. The last time we had a 'hung' or no overall control Parliament was in the February 1974 General Election. The then Conservative party leader (Edward Heath) tried unsuccessfully to form a coalition with the Liberals. Eventually, the Labour party (which had a few more seats than the Conservatives) governed as a minority government. Labour announced a General election later in that year and won the second General election in October 1974 outright with a majority.

David Cameron has hinted he may challenge this notion if his party has the largest number of seats (which looks highly likely).

A minority conservative government is certainly a real possibility. Especially, if the Cameron does not want to give ground on electoral reform. Its possible for the largest party to put policies before parliament on a case by case basis. Here in Scotland we had had a minority Scottish National Party administration since 2007 even though they do not have anything like a majority of seats. They have formed alliances with the other parties on specific policies as legislation is debated. Although, this looks far from the kind of decisive government Cameron wants.

However, Gordon Brown would get first go at forming a coalition. Clegg has previously indicated Brown is an obstacle to forming a coalition with Labour. If Brown resigned after a poor Labour vote in the election a new Labour leader could negotiate with the Liberal Democrats. However, the idea of a ruling party running a leadership campaign in such difficult times does not seem desirable. So there are all kinds of possibilities depending on how the electoral arithmetic works out.
I ask because if the former is true, my first feeling is that it will be a Tory minority gov, and a new election within some time which will make Clegg PM, probably in coalition with a weakened Labour. This is more a (Neptunian) feeling so far then a right down astro analysis.
I cannot see Clegg having much chance of being UK Prime Minister unless the voting system changes. That of course is an abiding aim of the Liberal Democrats. Its conceivable they could overtake Labour with that kind of voting system.
Further more I am a bit surprised to what extent Neptune not been mentioned in most analysis, especially when talking about the Saturn/Uranus opposition. I see the current quincuns (150deg) to Saturn and Poll Close chart's Mc as very significant, just as the semisextile to Uranus and Poll Ic as well. Like I belive the polls shows a distorted picture and the real result will be quite diverse.
Yes dont forget the Moon is void of course on the day of the election.
This naturally lead to the question the significance of the Poll Close chart it self. I think it does have a lot of significance, although maybe not in answering the question of who's gonna win the election but rather what may unfold as a result of the choise the UK people will make as a collective. So I would say it would become most usefull to use in understanding what will take place after the election.
Its an interesting discussion. I know some people passionionately support either the opening or close of poll chart. They are both worth study in my opinion.
There is another chart I would consider to look at for more cluse of the outcome of the election and which I haven't seen here - or elesewhere - the chart for the moment when Brown make public the elections will be on May 6th. Sure one can argue here the time he when to the Queen or gave here the message etc. would be more significant although I see the announcement more as the "birth moment" when the energy was released. If anyone know the time for that event it would be very interesting, even if only as a after study.
Excellent point. I did try to pin down a time for this but failed. It would be very interesting to see I agree. The problem with the meeting with the Queen is that it takes 20-30 minutes. Hard to time. Stephen Birchfield used the time Brown became prime minister as a key momemnt for determining his time in office. The announcement of the election would be an interesting chart to study.
Personally I think Clegg has what it takes "but" it's too early for him, and his best move whould be not to get into a coalition with Tory, and I think he's smart enough to catch that - but you never know.
Clegg seems very well connected to the UK chart (1927). Although there now appear signs he has peaked too early in this campaign as the Liberal Democrat support seems to to have decreased somewhat after the highs following the first leaders debate.
Last edited by Mark on Thu May 06, 2010 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly