Baby: help or hinderance?

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I have to say I completely agree with Aglaya's response. And, as someone else said, a baby shouldn't be viewed as being either a "help" or a "hinderance."

But that said, and with nothing astrologically to add, other than a Rx Mercury usually changes everything, why doesn't the woman consider adoption for her child? That way, she will make someone who desperately wants a child very happy.

Re: Will this child help or hinder my life?

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Hi, kokoguy!
I didn't have time to answer your post yesterday!
But, before I do it now, I would like to stress that my intention was not to attack your point of view or your own system of values - I'am a very open-minded person but I still do think that this is a potentially very dangerous situation for both you as her astrologer and for her so I'm just trying to elaborate my "approach". ;-)

kokoguy wrote: But she does have a choice, which is the nature of having a society that permits abortions.
But that is old news- we all know that we have a choice but, the fact that something is out there and available does not decrease the heaviness of this act, does it? Abortions were not legalised so that they could become another form of contraception.
In the old days, the fact that abortion was not legal did not stop thousands of women from having more than 15 "accidental miscarriages while visiting their aunt in another village". Yet, nowadays when it is legal and when it has been legal for over 40 years, at least 50% of women say that they could never do it.
Like I said, the modern ages do not make this thing any less traumatic. And, as you have rightly pointed out, the consequences (bot physical and psychological) can be very huge.
Believe me, i'm a very liberal person but this goes beyond "gay marriages" type of modern obstacle or "what Vatican would have to say"! I'm not influenced by dogmatic teachings, i support the freedom of choice but, ethical or not, this action still goes against the nature and, surely, you understand that as a woman in the first place I find it a very scary thing and hope that it will never become "modern". At the same time, I sympathise with women who think that they have to make this choice in some critical situations.
So considering her ability to choose, I think she's weighing a couple different issues as the chart shows: the obvious selfish angle of her career vs. motherhood and how it will affect her marriage. I think the latter issue is the bigger one, actually.
I think that is the only issue here and that is exactly what i don't like about this question!
I get that you don't like the question (and that's fair), but that doesn't mean the question isn't both radical/readable (as I think it is) or warranted
Well, obviously, no one is perfectly comfortable with such questions!

But, it really isn't about how I feel about abortions and, like I already said- so far, i have had many such questions and, no, it isn't a situation in which I would instantly say: "No, no, don 't do that, are you insane?!".

This is not a slippery ground only because the whole situation might result in her having an abortion- it is the way how the things are put in this particular case that I'm not comfortable with. For that very reason, I believe that labeling the calls for caution "moralistic" in this case is not really helpful because, it is not about whether someone should have an abortion or not but about whether abortions should be taken so lightly or even done for very much wrong reasons! And, I'm afraid that here it is the case!
Moreover- I'm afraid that the way that this question was phrased is indicative of yet another mistake that i'm not sure she can afford herself to make.
As yuzuru has pointed out- it is the form of the question that would pull me away from answering it.
If it is her marriage that she is worried about, then she should form the question differently.
"Will my husband/boyfriend ever come to terms with the fact that i'm having someone elses child?" - that is a form of question that i would have no trouble answering. because, in the end of the day, it is only her who will have to make the decisions based on what she hears from the astrologer and, technically, she might simply decide to prepare herself for the break-up.
But when the question is phrased the way it is- it is up to an astrologer to give this woman enough reasons why she should or should not have an abortion so, basically...
I also don't think the astrologer has to answer in favor of abortion, per se.
...I believe that, in this particular situation, you are put in a position to do just that!

I don't know how fair it is (to only paraphrase you and perhaps incorrectly) to say "suck it up" and move on.
Heavens, no! And I'm sorry if I left such impression. I don't think that she should just swallow her mistakes and live with their consequences- I'm not her friend, I'm not her advisor and I strongly believe that every next step represents an oportunity to can make up for the mistakes that we have done in the past.
So, quite the contrary- and that actually is the core of my opinion when it comes to this Question - I think that she should now very carefully examine the whole situation a and accept that it seems almost as though she has excluded herself from it. It might help her to realise that she is currently trying to turn the victim (the child) into a culprit.
Nothing will happen "by default"!
That is what i don't think an astrologer should support this attitude without at least trying to advise the Querent to be careful and to recognise the priorities-it is not the abortion per se and the story about it that he needs to avoid. Obviously, we cannot be that easily blamed for our client's decisions.
If she does decide to have an abortion, it should be for much better reasons, otherwise, the series of mistakes continues.
That is also why I mentioned hot potato and the necessity of doing some basic math.

Her Question is echoing a wrong attitude (in my humble opinion ) and, if I were her astrologer, i would decide not to answer it. Not in this form, anyway!
Now, this might sound as though i'm correcting her grammar mistakes by suggesting that she should simply change the word order or put some make up onto her question (because, "for what it's worth, the stars will know what she had in mind") but, unfortunately, i think that the form of this question is resonating her current attitude and, if an astrologer decides to support it, then I'm afraid the damage is most likely to become even bigger.
The child cannot hinder her life- at least not until it turns at least 15. :) it is the Querent who can do that- with her actions. This child is a fruit of her actions, after all.
It is she who dictates her future as well as the future of her child at the moment, rather than the other way around. And it is the child who will suffer or benefit from her decisions or actions .
But, inaslong as the question is put in this form, it seems to me that she is putting an awfully heavy burden of responsibility if not blame onto the back of a child that has not even been born yet. And, even more importantly- she is expecting to much from it.

How happy she will be will highly depend upon what she currently wants- the birth of the child cannot be simply or objectively described as either good or bad; it will be a happy event if she is looking forward to it. It won't if she doesn't.
If a man spends his life trying to earn 1 million dollars then he will most likely end up being very disappointed when he finds out that his goal had been unrealistic from the beginning.
Someone else, not nearly as interested in having 1 mil. dollars will surely be a very happy person even without them.
That is why she has to come to terms with the fact that it is her who has the capacity to turn this child into an obstacle or in to a blessing- not the stars. And, whilst the chart is most likely to resonate her own attitude, that attitude is already hidden withing herself and she should now finally recognise it. Her future actions and happiness will depend upon how she feels now about the whole situation. What are her priorities, expectations etc.?

Imagine two women giving birth to two healthy children on the same day. One of them leaves her baby in an orphanage and the other one takes her baby home and devotes her life to it. What do you think the astrologer, if they had by any chance visited one 9 months earlier, would have had to say to them about their future? The stars cannot really ouch anyone into any of the two situations- only a mother can.
That is what this Querent needs to find out right away- if SHE tinks that this child would make her happy and, even more importantly- if she can make it happy.

Also, bare in mind, that the kid is not the only potential reason why her boyfriend might leave her. They obviously live in a monogamous relationship, many husbands would leave their wives as soon as they'd find out about their in fidelity let alone after finding out that they were carrying a child of another man...and, whilst the fact that they live in an open relationship it is not of my (or your) business , we do have to follow our common sense and notice that there is more than one reason why this man might leave her. We also have to notice that she might leave him too. He might decide to stay now but what if he leaves 3 years from now? Again, not of our business but this question or the form of this question imports one huge danger for the astrologer- who will this woman blame if the man indeed decides to leave her in the future? Her baby? And if you give her enough reasons to believe that the baby might "hinder" her marriage then, i'm afraid, you're in a position to support her attitude which is wrong. It is her actions that might cause him to leave, not the baby. What if she makes more mistakes in the future and the man finally leaves? Will she still blame the baby?

So, to summarize; she has to first reevaluate the situation by taking objective facts into consideration. She knows that being a mother for the 4th time will require much more effort and time and that it will probably affect her career. Then she has to determine as to how happy she might be with the whole situation in case she decides to keep the baby.
Secondly, she needs to be honest with herself and to finally realise that it is her actions and even mistakes that could cause further damage. Because, for now (to me) it seems as though the general attitude is- oh, well, i have made a mistake, should I correct it, what do the stars have to say? But, if the things do not turn out to be as I wish, who will i blame then? The stars again?
She has to know that the stars cannot do anything on her behalf and that, in a situation where it is only her who can determine the future course of the events, she needs to be honest with herself. She needs to know that she will be happy with this child if she wants this child- that's the reason why I said that she should get in touch with her expectations. It's her expectations that will determine one huge part of the future in this case.

Now, i shared my personal/astrological opinion on this but even in the chart, the Moon placed inside the 12th whilst her ruler is amazingly strong- she should use her power constructively now. and this peregrine, retrograde saturn inside the 10th is, in my opinion, a sign of caution for you! ;-)
Last edited by aglaya on Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:54 am, edited 4 times in total.

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What is significant is that the moon will be applying to an opposition to the part of fortune, which again doesn't augur well for the mother's fortune.
That is interesting. This is basically a hypothetical question, it was not a question of "what will happen," so I generally try to look at it as whether or not it's a win or lose scenario if you do what is asked - here it is to keep the child, in other cases it might be to take the job, marry the person, get the tooth fixed, etc. I realize it's an entirely different matter, but I have a similar work/moving horary with the PoF is in the 6th and the Moon opposing from the 12th, and most people in the forum advised against the job. Instead of the child causing damager, the horary seems to suggest it might be a sign of doing damage to yourself, since the Moon opposes the PoF from a house of self-undoings. But that might depend on how the question was formed exactly too - is it more damaging for the querent to get the abortion or to keep the child? Normally I just assume a horary isn't showing a negative outcome for a negative question, it's showing a negative or positive outcome for the issue itself. In other words, if you ask, "does this person hate me?" If the horary is very negative, with a difficult opposition between you, does this mean the opposite of hate? No, I'd more likely think it's indicating that they do in fact dislike you, especially if their sig is an ill malefic and does not receive you. If the horary was positive, with the person receiving you well and being friendly in aspect, they would not hate you, etc. So, basically, what I am trying to say is that horary usually just tries to answer as is - i.e., if you keep the child, this is what you might have to deal with. The job horary where I asked if I would do well to keep or leave my job was positive for the job, but the outcome was not based on my decision to leave my job. I am just trying to point out that a negative indication here for the querent doesn't necessarily mean a negative for her if she decides on the abortion, it seems more like a negative outcome in her life if she keeps the child, IMO. I am a scientist with a Moon-Saturn square, so I am attempting to keep a detached frame of mind here and approach the horary as if it were a different issue.

The Moon is also ruling the 8th and sits in the baby's turned 8th house, with a separating square to Mars (unable to receive Mars in its fall), next applying to trine Jupiter. I normally think of a fall/detrimented sig as not having much hope in the matter inquired about, and in the 12th there is much sadness, depression, angst, etc. The Moon just left the via combusta, where everything pretty much goes wrong, and a difficult square to Mars where Moon does not receive Mars (and Moon is unable to receive anything), next applying to trine that doesn't require reception, to a benefic (which is herself). Her primary sig in its own domicile seems as though she is thinking of her own interests in the end, which might be an easier solution (benefics being the easier route), but I am sure this is a difficult decision for her. A superior benefic that is dignified is generally a good person and does not intentionally want to hurt anything. Jupiter is in aversion to Mars via sign, so maybe she does not "see" the child for its worth much, there are some beneficial things about the child (such as being in the 9th house, having sect, receiving the Moon). The Asc does aspect Mars and so does Moon, but Jupiter doesn't. Jupiter may have generosity to Mars because it is in her triplicity, so she is sympathetic, but there isn't much interest there. I think Jupiter is much more representative of the querent, especially since it aspects the ASC by sign also. The Moon is in aversion to the ASC, and so it probably does not represent the querent well, and more likely shows the issue at hand.
Of one thing I am certain is the self-absorbed nature of the question and it is aptly symbolized by Jupiter in Pisces in his domicile. She'll be convinced she's right either way.
I agree, and a 10th house Saturn ill usually says this too - that whatever you advise is not really listened to, or could be used against you somehow or put your credibility as an astrologer into jeopardy even. She could basically warp whatever you say into making herself justify her own decision as "right." I don't really know if there is a right or wrong exactly, as there are losses either way, there is just a decision to be made.

Besides the obvious shock some astrologers had and the 9th house moral issue of the Sun (ruling the 9th), I think I had read somewhere that a combust astrologer sometimes indicates that querent is not entirely truthful to the astrologer also. A 7th ruler so afflicted is grounds for a lot of caution though, especially if you are uncomfortable with the situation.

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Aglaya: Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I think we do have a fundamental difference of opinion on the propriety of the question, and I can't help but think that some of it might be gender based. (I will explain) And that's okay for me, because we have a much greater agreement elsewhere. What I'm "hearing" from you, if I'm listening correctly, is that as a woman you can't stomach the selfish nature of the question as it affects the child. As you said, you could understand and sympathetic if the question were more about the boyfriend/husband running off or not; but the casual decision about how to cope with the prospect of having or not having a baby is not only too much, but seems to be a way to foist the onus of the decision onto the astrologer. This is not an unreasonable assumption or conclusion on your part. I do agree with that concern. But I'm not sure that's exactly what she's doing, though. As tanit points out, the chart does bode for this possibility as a precaution (Saturn in the 10th, opposing her siggy with a combust Mercury, who disposits Saturn.) I very well could be blamed if I lay out my judgment as something that warrants her aborting her baby. So I won't.

I will speak on the real issue that this chart surfaces and as I did during my reading of her horoscope as well. Without going into detail (as I can't), I will say that this client has a Jupiter in Pisces natally and in the 7th house. Perhaps you can see where I'm going with this. The real issue is whether she has enough faith in her partnership and PHILOSOPHY of partnership at this time. This "child" is a test of this faith. But let's be clear (and this is where I disagree with your concern about the child), there is no child...yet, by law. There is the only thing that she has had from the start: a promise, an aspiration, a hope and philosophy of an open marriage. This child is a statement of her own faith in what she believes. If she has this child, this promise, then she must trust that her philosophy can win out uber alles. And she must nurture this child who will probably continue to test and try the tangible (not just theoretical or adult) applications of her philosophical ideas of relationships and home (as signified by the 4th house Jupiter of the horary chart). If she is prepared for this test, then it makes sense for her to fulfill this particular part of the promise. If she is not prepared for this test, considering that I (and tanit) don't feel her husband is the father, then she must be honest what this open marriage is really about--the dynamic between Jupiter and Saturn (freedom & limits). She must recognize that she either needs to draw this relationship in scale or be honest that it was never in proportion anyway. That's the real decision. And this, tanit, is what I don't think she's been honest about. I've sensed this from the moment I met the client (in person) and I think it's the issue that's surfacing in her life. So now she's faced with the prospect of carrying the child of someone who's not her husband's and if her husband (who had to be coaxed into the open marriage anyway) will abide. I think what's she's not confessed is that she knows the truth--the baby's not her husband's and she knows that her husband won't stay. Yet she now has so much at stake, including a lot of media attention on them and their open marriage, that she has a much deeper truth to face than having a baby. Is she prepared to face that? I don't think so, but that's not for me to decide. She will either have to keep faith in a hollow promise (sans baby) for the sake of her "career" or with the baby, trust, against her own intuition of the truth, that her philosophy of relationship is correct. All the while, there is only a promise, nothing more or less. Of course, I imagine, aglaya, a child is perhaps much more to you than that, and that's true when a child is born. From what I gather, you believe that a parent (potential or otherwise) has an obligation to see that promise through, unless extenuating circumstances dictate otherwise. This, I believe, is a romantic notion of any promise that a parent has to a child, whether as a fetus or full-born. It is less romantic when a child is born, but it certainly is more romantic when the fetus is less than a month. I believe there is no greater need or reason for a woman to fulfill the promise of the seed in her womb than her belief in that promise or ability to fulfill it. If she fails in either, then it is her prerogative to not have "the child." Perhaps I can sound so detached about this because I'm a guy who will never know what it's like to have a promise grow inside of me or because I have no control over such a promise once it starts to grow in a woman's womb. In the case of this horary, I think it's clear that the best part of it is her own self-absorbed belief in the promise of polyamory/open relationships. But it has too many complications to be grounded or survive, in my judgment. That latter part, I won't deliver in just that way. I will speak more about what she senses as the truth about her relationship. This is what will inform her decision about the "promise" of this child.

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Aglaya: Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I think we do have a fundamental difference of opinion on the propriety of the question, and I can't help but think that some of it might be gender based. (I will explain) And that's okay for me, because we have a much greater agreement elsewhere. What I'm "hearing" from you, if I'm listening correctly, is that as a woman you can't stomach the selfish nature of the question as it affects the child. As you said, you could understand and sympathetic if the question were more about the boyfriend/husband running off or not; but the casual decision about how to cope with the prospect of having or not having a baby is not only too much, but seems to be a way to foist the onus of the decision onto the astrologer. This is not an unreasonable assumption or conclusion on your part. I do agree with that concern. But I'm not sure that's exactly what she's doing, though. As tanit points out, the chart does bode for this possibility as a precaution (Saturn in the 10th, opposing her siggy with a combust Mercury, who disposits Saturn.) I very well could be blamed if I lay out my judgment as something that warrants her aborting her baby. So I won't.

I will speak on the real issue that this chart surfaces and as I did during my reading of her horoscope as well. Without going into detail (as I can't), I will say that this client has a Jupiter in Pisces natally and in the 7th house. Perhaps you can see where I'm going with this. The real issue is whether she has enough faith in her partnership and PHILOSOPHY of partnership at this time. This "child" is a test of this faith. But let's be clear (and this is where I disagree with your concern about the child), there is no child...yet, by law. There is the only thing that she has had from the start: a promise, an aspiration, a hope and philosophy of an open marriage. This child is a statement of her own faith in what she believes. If she has this child, this promise, then she must trust that her philosophy can win out uber alles. And she must nurture this child who will probably continue to test and try the tangible (not just theoretical or adult) applications of her philosophical ideas of relationships and home (as signified by the 4th house Jupiter of the horary chart). If she is prepared for this test, then it makes sense for her to fulfill this particular part of the promise. If she is not prepared for this test, considering that I (and tanit) don't feel her husband is the father, then she must be honest what this open marriage is really about--the dynamic between Jupiter and Saturn (freedom & limits). She must recognize that she either needs to draw this relationship in scale or be honest that it was never in proportion anyway. That's the real decision.

And this, tanit, is what I don't think she's been honest about. I've sensed this from the moment I met the client (in person) and I think it's the issue that's surfacing in her life. So now she's faced with the prospect of carrying the child of someone who's not her husband's and if her husband (who had to be coaxed into the open marriage anyway) will abide. I think what's she's not confessed is that she knows the truth--the baby's not her husband's and she knows that her husband won't stay. Yet she now has so much at stake, including a lot of media attention on them and their open marriage, that she has a much deeper truth to face than having a baby. Is she prepared to face that? I don't think so, but that's not for me to decide. She will either have to keep faith in a hollow promise (sans baby) for the sake of her "career" or with the baby, trust, against her own intuition of the truth, that her philosophy of relationship is correct. All the while, there is only a promise, nothing more or less.

Of course, I imagine, aglaya, a child is perhaps much more to you than that, and that's true when a child is born. From what I gather, you believe that a parent (potential or otherwise) has an obligation to see that promise through, unless extenuating circumstances dictate otherwise. This, I believe, is a romantic notion of any promise that a parent has to a child, whether as a fetus or full-born. It is less romantic when a child is born, but it certainly is more romantic when the fetus is less than a month. I believe there is no greater need or reason for a woman to fulfill the promise of the seed in her womb than her belief in that promise or ability to fulfill it. If she fails in either, then it is her prerogative to not have "the child." And that could be for the best, regardless. Perhaps I can sound so detached about this because I'm a guy who will never know what it's like to have a promise grow inside of me or because I have no control over such a promise once it starts to grow in a woman's womb. In the case of this horary, I think it's clear that the best part of it is her own self-absorbed belief in the promise of polyamory/open relationships. But it has too many complications to be grounded or survive, in my judgment. That latter part, I won't deliver in just that way. I will speak more about what she senses as the truth about her relationship. This is what will inform her decision about the "promise" of this child.

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Hello again

Speaking astrologically, I think you're absolutely right about the relationship issues.

I mean, as you've said, having Venus smack bang on the cusp of the 7th is shouting very, very loudly.

Whatever the phrasing of the question, whatever the meaning of the question, whatever the casualness or depth or whatever else of the question, the chart is shouting loud and clear about the terrific importance of the marriage situation.

In other societies, getting married to more than one person is allowed, legally, morally, and religion-wise. I expect that doesn't mean no problems like this ever arise! However this woman and the two men live in a culture where they cannot, legally (and, really, culturally) be equals.

I don't want to complicate things in an already complex discussion, however unlike some of the people here I take note of the positions of Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto.

I am very reluctant to say this but I also wonder, looking at the chart, if this woman's body is going to 'make the decision for her'. In a way, it would on the face of it (but not really, because things always niggle) avoid all the conscious responsibility-taking that is required in what is a very complex, onerous situation for all concerned - including the children who are already alive, for we must remember that this isn't just about the querent, her husband, her boyfriend, and the recently conveived child, it's about the children who have already formed the family unit.

Mars sitting on the cusp of the 9th, Venus on the cusp of the 7th. Maybe this is a cop out, but I think the chart is asking the woman the question, rather than the woman asking the chart.

Regards

H.

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kokoguy wrote:Aglaya: Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I think we do have a fundamental difference of opinion on the propriety of the question, and I can't help but think that some of it might be gender based. .
It could be!
But, then again, this is not the first time I face such a question yet it is the first time that I think the question is not put correctly. An abortion can always be seen as a very selfish act but, still, I have never said to anyone- you should not do this! I try to help, but not to preach.
The truth is- I don't think that I have seen so far a question that would so casually put the life of the child into the second plane and I think that answering it might be dangerous because, let's face it- you were asked to give enough pro's and con's and I'm not sure as to how you can actually do that.
I'm looking at the chart and to be perfectly honest, i don't know where one should actually start from. In order to conclude that the baby might become "an obstacle", we need to see its ruler prohibiting something or attacking the ruler of the Querent (just some examples). We need to find enough testimonies that would support the idea that this child might become her enemy - it just doesn't sound right, does it? Besides- the problem here is not just "should she keep the baby" but "does she know what it is that should be preserved in the first place".
If she were to ask me; will me career suffer?, will my marriage suffer?, - than it would be a completely different situation. I'd try to find the signs of her pregnancy interrupting her plans and say what i think i see in the chart. Only, i don't know how one can search for the "general" signs of deterrence or impediment in such a confusing situation.
What I'm "hearing" from you, if I'm listening correctly, is that as a woman you can't stomach the selfish nature of the question as it affects the child
Well, it could be that I dislike the whole idea because I'm a woman but- like I said, I have been answering similar questions before. What makes this situation different is the apparent wrong attitude- will the child do something? No, it won't do anything- it is the Querent who finally needs to make the list of her priorities and, if, (again!) she does not want another child then, i'm afraid, she might not be happy with it no matter what the chart or the astrologer who reads it say to her. As always, the biggest part of the future promise is actually hidden in the present.
Because, if abortion weren't a huge problem, if it weren't a stressful situation, women would not ask for astrological readings- it's not an easy decision to make.
The only thing I'm saying is that- it should be made for better reasons and that she should know what it is that she actually wants to hear!
Is it whether her marriage would fall apart in case she decides to keep the child? That is ok!
Or whether she will have to leave her job or miss a chance for promotion? that is ok too- I don't question anyone's system of values. But, even from the astrological point of view, we do have to know what it is that we're looking for!
And, according to everything that has been said so far- i think that we indeed are talking about the 7th rather than the 5th house matter. But, then it should be put into words differently.

I believe that it is very important to keep in mind that people often focus onto secondary facts, objects or events instead of concentrating onto the most important ones.
"Will his marriage with his wife survive?"
No, the real question is "Will I be with him?".
"Will he hurt me?"
The answer- "Will you let him hurt you?". Or, we can suggest the client to ask about the objective possibilities of starting a steady relationship with someone. If the chart says "No", then, obviously, the chances of getting hurt are very high in case the Querent decides to pursue that relationship.
In many cases the answer to "Will i receive any damage from..?" is- yes, if you let him/her/it hurt you!
Providing objective facts should help a person to make up her mind easily but, in this case, we have no objective fact to look up in the chart (first it was her career, now it is her marriage and all this time we're talking about the baby) . Because how the story will develop will mainly depend upon the Querent's subjective vision. It will depend upon her goals, her priorities, her plans after all. Those should come first.Having a baby is not either bad or wrong- here we need to know what is best for your client and we can only know that if we are familiar with the repviously mentioned. That, at the same time, is the only way she can get a useful answer as well.
As you said, you could understand and sympathetic if the question were more about the boyfriend/husband running off or not; b
I wouldn't sympathise more- it's not up to me to decide what is more important in her life. That would only make allow the astrologer to answer a specific question and would probably result in a more meaningful question. Becasue, the way it looks now- the Question doesn't have a real focus. But that, again, I have already at least partialy answered above the last quoted lines.
If we don't have a clear situation we can only try to determine whether her kid would eventually become her enemy. And, i'm afraid that it is only her who can turn the child into one.
If she decides to have the abortion after reevaluating the situation- she's free to do so. That is the part that the astrologer cannot interfere with.
So, how I feel about the whole idea is not really important.

We cannot exclude the Querent and her influence onto the situation from the question- that was my point! And here, it seems as though she is actually trying to remove herself entirely and to become almost an observer. And it ain't so! It can't be so! She needs to be aware of her own role and of the fact that the role she is playing is the main role here. So, once again- if she does not want the child, what do you think the answer to the question is? It is not hidden in the stars, it is hidden inside her heart. Or in the list of her plans or priorities! whichever! it doesn't really matter but, one big part of this answer is already known.
But let's be clear (and this is where I disagree with your concern about the child), there is no child...yet, by law
But that doesn't make us any less humans, does it?!
Again, it could be that women cope with such things differently but I can assure you that the fact that the abortion is now legal doesn't make it any less a stressful and traumatic experience for most women. No law can describe this- the astrologer should think of her feelings and there is no blame in trying to at least offer a suggestion or advice- no crucifiction, just a comforting advice.
I think what's she's not confessed is that she knows the truth--the baby's not her husband's and she knows that her husband won't stay.
The husband's ruler is combust here- very indicative of what you're saying!
the case of this horary, I think it's clear that the best part of it is her own self-absorbed belief in the promise of polyamory/open relationships
So, we're back to her, aren't we? We aren't really talking about an open relationship but about a relationship in which she is free or feels free to do whatever she wants.
That is exactly why i said that it could be dangerous to say that a child might hinder her life- her husband is obviously hurt too and that probably means that he does not perceive their relationship the same way she does. If he does decide to leave, it probably won't be just because she is pregnant but because she has slept with someone else, because he, after all, isn't so keen on the idea of an open relationship...because he feels that he does not belong there.
That is what she needs to be reminded of.
I'll tell you what i'd do; I'd ask her :" What it is that you're affraid of losing in case you decide to keep the baby?". That would make it easier for me to provide an adequate answer and, technically speaking- then I would know what to look for in the chart.
Secondly, i would ask :" Are you aware that it is your expetations that will play the biggest role here and that you must become familiar with your wishes first because one huge part of the answer is hidden in your own heart and can be read right now with no chart?"
Finally, i would by all measn ask :" Are you sure that you have taken all the important facts into consideration and that you are willing to restrain from making any further mistakes?". Because, if she isn't- then the child will still be the only cause of her troubles and it really isn't so!

So, I hope that you now understand that, though it is hard for everyone to accept the idea that a woman will terminate a pregnancy (we're just people!) I'm not trying to suggest that she is a monster, i'm just trying to say that she has to be reminded of her own role and of the importance of being objective. She has already made a mess in her relationship- how could the child be the only cause of her problems? The child is a consequence.
Astrologers come across such situations all the time- it is not about the abortion at all.
I hope that my standpoint is at least a bit more clear now! I am not talking about the abortion- I'm talking about the form of the question andI've learnt long time ago that the way people explain put the things or ask the questions is usually resonating their general attitude. In this case, to, it does not look like a good one. She is waiting to hear as to how a kid might "harm" her. The answer is simple- no way! If she believes in that it is al about the kid then she will simply blend the informations into her version of the story and her astrologer would, basicaly, be helping her to avoid reality.
But, as her astrologer you might also suggest that she should take a deep breath, recognise her role in this situation, become aware of her own power to turn it into a specifdic direction and to, by all means, say out loud what it is that she is affraid of losing in case she becomes a mother for the 4th time, or what it is that she would like to preserve or keep, then you can tellgive her a set of objective facts or promises, she can do the math and, in the end of the day- decide for herself. And if that decision means that she will have an abortion, that is fine with everyone. You only provide the informations that she needs and your hands are clean!
(Saturn in the 10th, opposing her siggy with a combust Mercury, who disposits Saturn.)
And I would be careful if I were you.
Just recently,I had a chit-chat with an astrologer who, a year ago, made a chart delineation for married man interested in starting an extramarital affair with his younger colleague.
In the mean time, his affair had become a huge threat for his marriage, his wife had temporarily moved out and his boss is not very satisfied with how the things are developing either.
Now, my colleague did say that this affair might put his marriage into danger but, at the time, the only thing that the Querent wanted to hear was the answer to the question - "Can I actually have this woman?". And my colleague gave him that answer- "Yes, you can. And easily too!" Because that was the truth. But now, a year after their last meeting, the man is blaming the astrologer for not being more "straightforward" .
He did warn him! Still, the Querent says :" You said that it would most likely ruin my marriage . But, keeping that in mind, i made sure that my affair stays secret!".
My colleague simply answered:" But, you didn't have to start the affair in the first place, did you?".

I'm saying this because people tend to accept advices as commands- if the astrologers says that I can start a relationship with a married man, then it means that i can do it.
If the astrologer says that this baby might hinder my marriage- then it will.
While the truth is- no, it won't if she changes her mind tomorrow and decides that she would rather have another baby than keep her current boyfriend. Or, it will in case she doesn't want the child!

so, as you can see, it is really not about the ethical "value" of her act- it is almost a technical question and the chart contains some loud alarm signs- the Querent is perhaps just a bit too self-centered at the moment, the Moon is inside the 12th and there is Saturn threatening to damage your reputation from the 10th. ;-)

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Hi Aglaya,

Last week I posted a very lengthy response to you, but, true to Mercury Retrograde form, and my laxity in not copying and pasting my text elsewhere, I lost it. Perhaps after thinking about this some more, I can be more succinct.

I don't think you fully understand the implications of this child for the querent, because you are thinking too conventionally about it. By this I mean that this child is so aptly signified by Mars in the 9th that it is ridiculous. The child is a test of her philosophy and her philosophical disposition, which is her entire career right now. (She's promoting her philosophy!) If her marriage, i.e. her husband, can't handle the strong possibility that this child is not his and it would entail broadening their family unit so much more than he's prepared to handle, then, for her, everything falls apart. For you, it seems, that none of this should be worth more than the life of this child. That could be true, but only in the same romantic sense that people are more or less willing to face reality, in general. The only thing that seems to be different is that there is a possible life at stake. I've taken to calling the child Satya in my own mind, which is a sanskrit word for the Truth. The question is whether this philosophy is true or not. Ultimately, I've never felt her conception of it was completely true, but is she prepared to let that go? I don't think so. Neither is the husband, the combust one with the peregrine Sun who can receive the occupant of the 9th house, but the occupant CAN'T and WON'T receive the Sun. The matter is a philosophical debacle for the querent and she's content, as it stands, with how things have been. So, yes, the baby could hinder the client's life as its presence poses the very challenge that she doesn't feel she can handle. Selfish? Sure, but why is it any more wrong or callous for her to do that than most people are beholden to their philosophies or ideas of their lives? If you say, because there's a child involved, well, here's where I introduce the conceit for why I called this question very modern in the first place: there is no child; just the promise of one.

Again, I am well aware of the dangers of this "case." I am not too worried about the present cost to my reputation as she has already lauded me publicly for my consult. But a mutable Jupiter is still mutable, though fairly upright. She might change her mind, but I don't think against me. She is more likely to think, initially, that she can handle this all and change her mind that way. I will all let you know when I know. I do think more about the cost of truth, though. I know classically the 10th house is the price of something, say a property, but on more "astral" levels, I tend to think that the 8th house is the cost of something and the 12th house is the price. They are not synonymous, though. The price is more akin to the toll and the cost is how you pay for it or what debt you create to acquire it. The ruler of the cost of all of this is in the 12th and fallen. She knows the karma involved in this, but doesn't feel as if she can do otherwise, especially as Mars can receive the Moon, but the moon is in no position to receive anyone, even as she separates from Mars and goes to oppose the POF. Again, faith in the Truth.

Thank you, everyone, for your comments and I will keep you posted of what's happening.

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This thread is very interesting.
I think kg's judgement of the chart is as "querent-centred" as it's possible to be.

My thoughts are with the querent and I truly hope she finds peace, whatever her final decision may be. I think she is lucky (blessed even) to have found this particular astrologer to consult with. (well, she is shown as jupiter in pisces) It can be difficult when faced with the reality of our personal philosophy and I feel that kg has dealt with the core issue in the question in a highly ethical manner. Just my opinion, of course.

I hope we get an update to this one even if it is sometime in the future. I am book marking this thread for my own learning.

Best wishes to you all
Susannah

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kokoguy wrote:

I don't think you fully understand the implications of this child for the querent, because you are thinking too conventionally about it. By this I mean that this child is so aptly signified by Mars in the 9th that it is ridiculous.
I think that my point has been missed entirely which surprises me because offered a very thorough explanation of my initial impression that the Question was simply not asked properly. I'm not sure I can do anything more to clarify it because my previous replies were very in-depth as it were.
I did say that it wasn't about the abortion at all. My personal view isn't really important here (besides, i'm not against abortions in the first place)- it's not that I'm thinking conventionally about abortions (i never said that she ought to keep the child), it's that the Question is not phrased conventionally. Or even correctly. And there are rules for asking Horary Questions, of course. The Querents are usually not familiar with such rules but that's why we have to remind them of them.
(Though, since I'm usually the one who is having troubles accepting certain restraints , i admit that being in a position of "traditionalist" for the first time in my life is a bit refreshing :D ).

I did my best to try to explain that the focus seems to be misplaced- in order to allow herself to make a better decision (whatever that means) she should put the things the way they are, not in order to punish herself for her mistake. The problem is not in how she will bring this story to an end (and whether she will terminate the pregnancy)- the problem is in the beginning, in how she has approached the situation.
You will find many threads here on forum where we discussed rather sensitive questions and you will notice that none of the members who have so far participated in this thread adhere to dogmatic belief systems or, at least, they do not allow them to interfere with their astrological practice.
I never stated that she was selfish or that she should not make an abortion. It's a very technical question that I'm talking about! But a wrong approach can result in wrong attitudfe and here we are talking about a baby that, in case she decides to keep it, might eventually become her enemy. She should not blame anyone (herself or the baby) but do the math- it will be no one's fault, but "let's just see if I can really manage this; can I have another baby and still afford myself this or that, keep the marraige etc.?". She needs to get constructive informations- but only those that cannot be obtained otherwise which, again, is one of the basic rules in Horary.
"Will a new red coat make me happy?"
Can a new coat really make someone happy?
The "answer" to this question would be- Do you like red? Do you like Coats? Do you have enough money to buy it?
All of these questions can be answered without a Horary chart. The Querent needs to find one huge part of the answers within herself first and then she will be able to phrase a constructive question and focus onto what really does matter and what really cannot be known without the astrological help.
So, again- "Will my marriage survive in case I decide to keep the child?" is a completely different story.
But I did say all this before!
Because how the story will develop will mainly depend upon the Querent's subjective vision. It will depend upon her goals, her priorities, her plans after all.
I hope that my standpoint is at least a bit more clear now! I am not talking about the abortion- I'm talking about the form of the question and I've learnt long time ago that the way people explain put the things or ask the questions is usually resonating their general attitude
But, many times, we need to remind our clients of both the rules for asking a Horary question as well as of their own role. And the reason for doing so is not (and should not be) grounded in our own reasoning. In this particular case, the danger does not come from the fact that she might terminate her pregnancy but from the fact that, at least apparently, she seems to have forgotten that much will depend upon her too. And putting all the burden on this child just doesn't seem right! Why not simply focusing onto what she wants or is afraid of?
People think and re-think doing many legal things over and over again- what is legal is not always simple; from bank loans to planning family. The troubles that accompany decisions such as this one are not just of the ethical nature- they're also biological. Whatever the Querent decides to do is fine, but for her own sake, she needs to be sure that she is doing the right thing. and we need to be sure that we're helping her the best way we can.
We have a huge responsibility in such cases and, the least we can do is to make sure that everything is put correctly. It is our obligation not because we should become our clients' shrinks or advisers (that we are not!) but because people tend to see as real "fortune tellers" sometimes and I mean this in a very positive (even flattering) way. They respect our virtue, they are often very moved by what we tell them and not everyone copes with the informations "from the future" very easily. This attitude can sometimes result in an unwanted situation in which the Querent (or the client in general) thinks that whatever we tell them must (inevitably) come true. That is to say- they sometimes believe that we literally see the future and that when we say "a promise" we think "inevitability". and it really isn't so! That is what we need to make sure that it does not happen and the best way to make sure is to ask additional questions and to instruct the client to ask a good or, as some would say, "radical" question.
I have given you one example in my previous answer, I will give you another, very recent one.
There is a man who has visited me at least 3 times over the past couple of months and who is very prone to such attitude- everything he hears frightens him because he instantly believes that it must happen. Each time I try to stress that we are talking about an option, he starts rolling his eyes and saying- You're just trying to make me feel better, aren't you?!?A very unpleasant situation. He owns a small private business (he makes wines) and has been experiencing some severe financial troubles lately. he has had to fire two of his workers, his barrels need to be checked and mended, he is up to his ears in debts and now his wife has lost her job too. The other day he came for the 4th time and said - I would like to know one thing? How big are my chances of getting a new loan from the bank?
Now, that is another tricky question! What if the charts says- Yes! ? This man will most likely ask for the loan because he seems to be taking everything for granted. He might get the loan but who is going to repay it?
So, I simply asked- Well, can you repay it? Your incomes aren't likely to improve any time soon and you're broke already?
He said- No, of course I cannot repay it! :lol: But how else can I keep my workers? If they leave, then everything falls apart! ...but, it's also true that i cannot repay the loan!
And that was it- he never asked the question!
But after only 10min of conversation and after he said that he will most likely have to fire more people, I asked him- Well, why don't you simply ask them if they agree to sign new contracts and to receive their monthly checks with less digits on them until the things are better again? So many people are unemployed nowadays and they know that you can't pay them as much as you used to any more! Maybe they'd agree- any job is better than no job at all!
He had a meeting with them the very next morning and they all agreed to stay.
If I had erected a chart for his initial question and said :"Yes, you will probably get the loan!" I'm 99% sure that he would actually decide to do it and would end up in even bigger debts.

So, my point is- we need to remind out querents that, sometimes, the answer is not hidden in the stars. In this particular case, it's got nothing to do with the abortion per se. we wouldn't want the Querents to regret any decision and we need to make them realise that some things they do have to investigate on their own.

Just my two pence, anyway!

Cheers!

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Hi Aglaya,

I think we're talking in past each other as one would expect right now with Mercury Retrograde. I get that you think the question is poorly constructed, and I disagree. It's as simple as that. I don't think you get the nuance that she's not really attempting to pawn off her decision on me or the universe as much as get the full ramifications of her decision to keep this baby or not. In that sense, the chart proves radical and clear as well. If we tweaked the question you got from your recent client, we'd have a comparable issue. If your client had asked if a bank loan will help him, he'd might get a very different (and better answer) than whether he would get the loan or not. That's essentially what you, in turn, asked him instead. (And I agree with what you did. He would have asked a useless question.) This, ultimately, is what my client is asking, but it's a baby we're talking about instead of a loan. This seems to shock you because you see a baby as neutral, neither being able to help or hurt a parent's life chances. That's where we fundamentally disagree. So I think she asked the question that she meant to ask, but I suspect your aversion to the question seems more based on your own premise of what a child represents. That's how I truly see our disparity. So, you're right it's not about whether this "child's" life will be terminated or not, but her own sense of responsibility. In her mind and mine, she's not shirking that. She is skirting around facing the truth of her life. That's a different issue.

Resolution...

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I wanted to get back to you good folks about the resolution of this matter as we had a very good discussion about this horary question nearly 9 months ago. I take the time frame as significant as we were talking about a baby after all.

First, she didn't have the baby. It took me months to find that out alone and she never directly told me, though I asked at least twice directly. I kind of just figured it out over time as she never talked about the baby publicly and recent photos didn't have her showing at all. (Remember she has a very public life via social networking sites.)

She also made a major move out of state with her husband. To my knowledge, she is NOT with the lover with whom she could have conceived this baby.

She has not publicly (at least) sullied my reputation as an astrologer, but has done the reverse. She has at least a few times recommended me to her followers in the first few months after our session. It did not convert into sales, but it was still a nice gesture.

What was most strange is that she took an exceptionally long time like 8 months to fully settle her balance with me. On good faith, I gave her a reading with half the payment as a downpayment as she promised to pay the balance within a week. A week became a month, if memory recalls, and then she only paid $50 of a $75 balance. I thought that was odd and made mention of the remaining balance due. She again promised to pay ti promptly. After one last gentle prompt, I decided to count the $25 as a loss. No biggie. Out of the blue a few weeks ago, she contacted me (Mercury Retrograde) to ask for my paypal address to pay me the balance. So now we're settled.

Thanks again for everyone's contribution and thoughts.