Kirk wrote:I first came across the 3 degree idea here. I'm asking myself if it was possibly Steven who mentioned it a few months ago. I later came across an old source that gave it. Was it Ibn Ezra or Bonatti?

You can find something about this 3 dgree idea in Sahl (Judgment 15), in Bonatti (The 30th Consideration) and in Ibn Ezra (The Beginning of Wisdom, Chapter 8, No. 35 on page 131).
In No. 28 Ezra says that a planet positioned at the beginning of the sign is considered weak until it reaches 5 degrees away from it.

So a planet at 29? was considered to have its strength already in the next sign but at the same time was considered to be weak in the first 5 degrees.

Thank you, Jogi. Here's Bonatti:

The 30th Consideration is, to observe when a planet that is significator, or the Moon, shall have past the 29th degree of the sign wherein it is, and touches the 30th, and especially if it have passed one minute of that degree; for then it shall have no strength in that sign, but in the next; so that if in the first it signified any evil, it shall hurt the person or thing threatened no more than the fall of a house shall one that is just got out of it, or being with one foot upon the threashold, has one behind him that throws him out, and then the building falls. And if it signified any good, it shall profit no more than he that hath spread a net for birds, and just touches the feathers of their tails, but never catches their bodies; and therefore Zael says, ?If a planet or the Moon be in the 29th degree of any sign, its virtue is yet in that sign wherein he is; because he has not yet wholly past the 30th degree.? &c.

And Ibn Ezra:

If the planet is at the end of the sign, its force will be lost for the first sign, and all its force will pass to the sign into which it is to enter. If the planet is in the 29th degree of the sign, its force stays in the sign where it is, because the planet exerts force in 3 degrees: in the degree in which it is, in the preceding degree, and in the subsequent degree.

Hello Kirk/Jogi,

Thanks for the quotes. I confess I haven?t come across this idea of planets operating over 3 degrees before! Also I hadn?t spotted the Bonatti?s reference to the weakness of the 30th degree . Very useful. I have read Deb mentioning planets being weakened in the first degrees of a sign before so its nice to have a source for that as well.

However, my use of the word ?destructive? wasn?t related to a planet being in late degrees. What I was emphasizing was that Saturn and Mars as the greater and lesser malefics have an inherent destructive potential. Two things can prevent this being expressed. Firstly, having essential dignity. This may well mitigate the destructive potential of a malefic. Secondly, the malefic like any planet needs ?room to operate?. For example tucked away in a cadent house they will have less power to influence events. There are obviously numerous other factors that can contribute to things such as n, aspects, reception, sect, planetary phase, motion, fixed stars, antiscia etc.

The benefics Jupiter and Venus are not inherently destructive but rather protective. Even when lacking dignity their influence is not malefic although their potential to protect may be neutralized. However, this is only a general statement. Context is everything in astrology.

Its interesting looking at the recent Jupiter-Saturn opposition while Jupiter was still in Pisces. Jupiter was strong by essential dignity. However, it was opposing a peregrine, occidental , Rx Saturn in the bounds of Mars. Both planets spent periods of time in the 30th degree during the opposition.

Mark

I read all what you wrote. Thank you a lot, i ll give you now some my opinions.

What means , "weakened" or "destructive". Can you give me concrete example on that issue ?

If you want i ll give you natal chart from one general (army) in my country. He has amazing chart. He has Mars 29 Virgo, Venus 29 Libra, Jupiter 0 Scorpio. Mars is ruler of his tenth house. Further more his Mars is on exact place where total solar eclipse occured before his birth (5-6 days i think).

So when i tried to interpret his house i started this way

a) he has Mars peregrine, as ruler of his tenth, in 8 house, day born - bad, bad, bad, Mars on eclipse - even more bad, and on the end he has that ruler on the 29 degree !

I couldn t explain on any way how can so weak Mars be so powerful on the end.

He fought in french Legion. He was in Somalia also, he then back to Croatia, became s supreme general. He was one of the strategic creators of croatian defence in the war. He also survived a couple asasination attemps.

So you can understand me if I ask you why - on this example person he has catastrophic Mars position, and in the same time - ruler of tenth - can be so succesful in life.

On the other hand, i had a client who had cancer. She had Venus 29 Scorpio, Taurus 29 Scorpio, Sun 0 Aquarius. She was very weak, very sick and finally she died.

How to make distinction between those two people ?

One more example. Singer Enya, highly popular performer has Saturn 29 R Capricorn, Sun 26 Taurus (Algol) , Moon 28 Gemini.

Sai Baba, spiritual leader of the east, has Sun 29 Scorpio, AC 29 Scorpio also.

So i think that late degree planets can easily be "the most perfected" or maybe "planets with experience". They came along to the end of sign. They learned everything what they could.

This is just my opinion of course.

Planets in the last degree of a sign do not make the whole picture, it's as easy as that; you don't get someone's life story, his/her successes/failures signified by only these positions, regardless of what they signify accidentally or universally.
The whole picture has to be taken into account, there are SO MANY other important elements which you haven't mentioned. And here we should be able to see the natal charts in order to analyze them. Cherry picking only certain elements out of the radix and then trying to fit someone's whole life into them does not work(like the life of general Gotovina, for example).

Greetings,
Goran

Planets in the last degree of a sign do not make the whole picture, it's as easy as that; you don't get someone's life story, his/her successes/failures signified by only these positions, regardless of what they signify accidentally or universally.

The whole picture has to be taken into account, there are SO MANY other important elements which you haven't mentioned. And here we should be able to see the natal charts in order to analyze them.

Cherry picking only certain elements out of the radix and then trying to fit someone's whole life into them does not work(like the life of general Gotovina, for example).

I totally agree. Well said.

Mark

okey, we can put natal chart. Enya would be good example. Of course that we need to take whole picture together, but when somebody has 4/z planets in third decade or even on 28-29 degree, that must meen something.

Many of you said that planet on 27-29 degree is weak or even can become destrutive. So the best way would be if you took the natal chart of Enya , see her biography.

I would like to see your opinion from TA point of view.

but when somebody has 4/z planets in third decade or even on 28-29 degree, that must meen something.

And what should for instance Mars in a third decan of Scorpio mean? Is it maybe unhappy/distorted/unable to do anything there? This is a MINOR consideration. Or take Venus in Libra for example, in the third decan of Libra, or even at 28th degree of the same sign(Mars's term) - it is her domicile, hence she is strong end essentially dignified there. But that is also just a single consideration, there are still some more, very important to be taken into account. And your point in stating that "this must mean something" is?
Yes it may mean something, but to get the whole picture, EVERYTHING must be analyzed.

Many of you said that planet on 27-29 degree is weak or even can become destructive

It may become that, if important other factors point into the same direction; the argument that these degrees are the terms of the two malefics is a rather weak one, because the malefics in these places gain some accidental dignity which makes them less harmful and potentially more profitable.

Goran

Gorane, kompa

I just wanted to point that maybe is possible that last degrees are strong not weak.

During the day I ll give you interest data about people who i know. Some on them are famous some or not, who had 0 and 29 degree actived. Outer planets excluded.

1. Cor scorpii, i have exact natal chart data from general Gotovina. He is Saggitarius ascedening. What is the most important for one warrior if not Mars ? He has Mars on 29 Virgo, ruler of Sun on 29 Libra ? I would not describe him as weak. Ruler of Sun with the ruler of AC are the tho most important planets in chart. I hope you agree.

2. My friend, Ph D in chemistry and molecular biology. He has Sun 29 Pisces, Mars 0 Taurus, and Saturn 0 Capricorn. He works in USA today.

3. Final example. In some astro book i found a person who has ability to count indefinite numbers. Photographic memory. He has all first 7 planets in third decade, even more 25 - or after degrees.

I think there can be some explanation for that. Aries points - 0 degree o all cardinal signs have immense power. But modern astrologer accept 1,5 degree orb for influence of such power. So theoretically 29 degree of mutable signs is under the orb influence of 0 degree - in next sign.

cor scorpii wrote:

but when somebody has 4/z planets in third decade or even on 28-29 degree, that must meen something.

And what should for instance Mars in a third decan of Scorpio mean? Is it maybe unhappy/distorted/unable to do anything there? This is a MINOR consideration. Or take Venus in Libra for example, in the third decan of Libra, or even at 28th degree of the same sign(Mars's term) - it is her domicile, hence she is strong end essentially dignified there. But that is also just a single consideration, there are still some more, very important to be taken into account. And your point in stating that "this must mean something" is?
Yes it may mean something, but to get the whole picture, EVERYTHING must be analyzed.

Many of you said that planet on 27-29 degree is weak or even can become destructive

It may become that, if important other factors point into the same direction; the argument that these degrees are the terms of the two malefics is a rather weak one, because the malefics in these places gain some accidental dignity which makes them less harmful and potentially more profitable.



Goran

Okay, that s true - but planet can be truly weak on this degrees just because of bad term. As you said term is minor condsideration. Some of you said that planet is gennerally weakened just because its in a bad term.

Some of you said that planet is gennerally weakened just because its in a bad term.

I think you have misunderstood what was being said. Yes as a factor in isolation it appears to be a weakening condition according to traditional sources (assuming no essential dignity elsewhere). However, it is just a small part of the jigsaw that makes up traditional delineation. Take a look at Lilly's table to examine the strength & debility of each planet:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

This kind of approach is just a guidline and different astrologers did adopt different schemes. However, the point is that there are numerous mitigating factors that can influence a judgement or delineation in traditional astrology.

Mark