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1. Cor scorpii, i have exact natal chart data from general Gotovina. He is Saggitarius ascedening. What is the most important for one warrior if not Mars ? He has Mars on 29 Virgo, ruler of Sun on 29 Libra ? I would not describe him as weak. Ruler of Sun with the ruler of AC are the tho most important planets in chart
I would really like to see that one :D
Ruler of the Sun and the ruler of the AC degree are both very important, when we look at their specific significations within the natal chart. At least, this is so in traditional astrology, modern is a lot different in this regard.
Gotovina as a weak for what? And who said he was weak? Mars is important in his chart, yes - if the Sagittarius ascends, this means it was a day-time birth hence his Mars is out of sect(tending to show his unrestrained, fiery, overly destructive side) and it is in its detriment(essentially debilitated),which means his Martian activities would not bring him luck/credit/fame,nor would they be able to show their positive side;but Mars is also oriental of the Sun, hence in a very powerful position regarding his ability to act and show its effects, this position can and often does signify a professional significator - and Gotovina is a soldier, a general. In the end, it would also mean:
"The position of the zoidia unconnected to one another has the numerical interval from 2, 6, 8, 12, and the zoidia taken in such intervals are also called averse to one another. And so the stars found in these zoidia become inharmonious. And sometimes they bring about hostile conditions, sometimes separations and banishments..."
connected to his Mars' accidental and universal significations, because Mars is unable to 'see' his house/the 10th/(to "steer his own ship"); moreover, Mars then becomes the ruler of the 12th(probably, by division, by whole-sign anyway) which signifies prisons and bad luck and enemies and sorrows. As far as I know, he is in the Hague now, indicted for war crimes - definitely a blemished end of a military career, ending up in a prison, far away from any glory/renown for his military accomplishments. Brief analysis only, without knowing further details.
I would really be interested to know in which house his Mars is posited.
in some astro book i found a person who has ability to count indefinite numbers. Photographic memory. He has all first 7 planets in third decade, even more 25 - or after degrees.
I would check the positions and aspects of the Moon and Mercury in this regard, as well as their speed, etc., then, pre-natal Sun/Mercury synod and how it relates to natal chart....
How is this brought into connection, what is the explanation/reasoning behind this statement that all the traditional planets are in the third decans of particular signs, hence someone has a photographic memory?

Goran

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Well, he achieved fame, not only in Croatia, but also in France and United States. His trial is still pending so we still can t determine has he reachec the fame, or he will be sentenced for war crimes. We ll know that by the end of the year. I didn t took his example from some particular reason we can see chart from other persons who has active 29 degree. But we are gennerally speaking now. Weak Mars cannot be general, commander etc. Inspite all bad influences you said, we achieved a lot of thing. He is the bringer of our independence but that is other thing. Here is his data: Ante Gotovina, 12 october 1955 , at 11.28 Pa?man (Zadar). You can enter Zadar. These are official information about his birth. Mars is in 9 house to the Placidus system division.

I can give you another example. Our fighter in UFC version, one of the 10 the best ultimate fighters in the world Mirko Cro cap has similar Mars position , 27-or 28 degree Virgo. I am not sure.

I understand that we need to look at all chart to make a judgmennt, but at the same way gennerally lot of last degree in some chart should make some negative impact. In these two - there are more of them , that impact is not present.
As long as you remember me I ll never be too far

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Weak Mars cannot be general, commander etc
His Mars isn't weak; it is only 'ill-disposed'(you need to see and learn the difference), which causes him to bring a good amount of controversy/problems in the areas of life it is supposed to 'steer'. Moreover, when a house is ruled by a malefic, we should expect problems in that area, even if that malefic is in an excellent condition. In Gotovina's chart, we have an accidentally powerful, but essentially corrupted, out of sect Mars - the first refers to his ability to act/strength, the second to the quality of his actions.
Regardless of the results of his trial in the Hague, the fact that he was indicted for war crimes is sufficient to put a blemish on his military career/honor; what people in Croatia/elsewhere think/feel about his role in that war is irrelevant, because biased by either admiration or hatred for him - the truth, I hope, will be established and found out and this kind of objective, impartial truth(as objective and impartial as mortal people are allowed/able to attain it!) is possible to be gleaned from the birth chart - at least, I believe so. And based upon the current situation, I'm afraid it doesn't look good for him(thanks for the data, BTW :' )
Erwin Rommel("The desert fox"), one of the best/most famous generals of the German "Wehrmacht"(many say, of the entire WWII) also had Mars in Libra - did that make a bad/weak general out of him? Of course not!

Mirko Cro Cop is one of my favorite fighters, an awesome athlete and a real animal in the ring :'

Goran
Last edited by cor scorpii on Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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cor scorpii wrote:
Weak Mars cannot be general, commander etc
His Mars isn't weak; it is only 'ill-disposed'(you need to see and learn the difference), which causes him to bring a good amount of controversy/problems in the areas of life it is supposed to 'steer'. Moreover, when a house is ruled by a malefic, we should expect problems in that area, even if that malefic is in an excellent condition. In Gotovina's chart, we have an accidentally powerful, but essentially corrupted, out of sect Mars - the first refers to his ability to act/strength, the second to the quality of his actions.
Regardless of the results of his trial in the Hague, the fact that he was indicted for war crimes is sufficient to put a blemish on his military career/honor; what people in Croatia/elsewhere think/feel about his role in that war is irrelevant, because biased by either admiration or hatred for him - the truth, I hope, will be established and found out and this kind of objective, impartial truth(as objective and impartial as mortal people are allowed/able to attain ti!) is possible to be gleaned from the birth chart - at least, I believe so. And based upon the current situation, I'm afraid it doesn't look good for him(thanks for the data, BTW :' )
Erwin Rommel("The desert fox"), one of the best/most famous generals of the German "Wehrmacht"(many say, of the entire WWII) also had Mars in Libra - did that make a bad/weak general out of him? Of course not!

Mirko Cro Cop is one of my favorite fighters, an awesome athlete and a real animal in the ring :'

Goran

So if I understand correctly, maybe i am wrong, accidental dignity will more determine destiny that essential ?

Former Jugoslav president Milosevic had Mars in Aries but in house 12. Esentially good position, but he died in prison.

I share opinion of some astrologers that planet on strong fixed star can override totally symbolism of sign and house where is found.
As long as you remember me I ll never be too far

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MarkC wrote:Hello Vindex/Cor Scorpii

Here is the chart for others to look at.
Well done, Mark.

No time to look at the chart, now- dinner time. Tomorrow I will try to say more.

Just I want to highlight the fact Mars is in its HELIACAL RISING (it's visible since the 1st October).

It's a very, very strong Mars,

margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

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Vindex wrote:
If you want i ll give you natal chart from one general (army) in my country. He has amazing chart. He has Mars 29 Virgo, Venus 29 Libra, Jupiter 0 Scorpio. Mars is ruler of his tenth house
Well, this is somewhat different from the birth chart Mark has just provided us with(thanks, Mark :D ) have you made a mistake Vindex or is it just that the birth data are not reliable, so were using some other sources?

Heliacal rising was the term I was looking for regarding Mars's position, but couldn't remember it.
Thanks, Margerita
:'
Goran

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Vindex wrote:

He is the bringer of our independence but that is other thing. Here is his data: Ante Gotovina, 12 october 1955 , at 11.28 Pa?man (Zadar). You can enter Zadar. These are official information about his birth. Mars is in 9 house to the Placidus system division.
Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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It is my my mistake, i thought he has Jupiter on 0 Scorpio. I mixed up him with somebody else. You can check on any source and you ll find 12 October 1955, i only provided exact time. So Jupiter is in Leo.

I had a lot information in my head.
As long as you remember me I ll never be too far

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My intent was not to pursue you to interpret his chart :D I just use him as example to show how some astro definitions can be uncomplete. He has ruler of Sun and many other planets on 29 degree. Mars as a symbol of war is on 29 degree also. Because this topic is opened for interpretation of 0 and 29 degree my suggestion is to focus on these things.

In early stage of his life, his parents abandoned him. They sent him on ship to Italy. There he after some time decided to go the France to join French legion. In next 15 years he goes to all countries of the world. He fights in Somalia during american invasion, later he goes to Algeria. As he stated lately he had a lot fight one to one. In our military history he is famous as the "swiftest croat" because he had extreme precions and switnnes in one-to one fight. Marshal Tito died in 1980 , next 10 years in Yugoslavia state is falling apart. Croats, Serbs and Muslims are going into the war. In that time he backs to Croatia and starts to fight. His skills in infatry fighting very fast puts him to the rank of general in just one year. He succesfully defends a couple of major cities of Serb attack. Finally he executes operation "Storm" where he regains about half of state which was under Serb control. Later in 2003 if I recall correctly ICTY acusses him for war crimes. Inluding destruction of civil tartegs, unhume behavior against war criminals. I have my opinion of that but this is irrelavant for this topic. He escapes, goes to China, Mauricijus, Russia and he is finally arrested in Spain. He avaits his verdict which is expected by the end of the year.

I think this part from his biography is enough for astrological analasys.
As long as you remember me I ll never be too far

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So life of these men is colored with war and fight from his birth to the his (at this moment) imprisoment. Any astrologer must look Mars as symbol of all this.

And then I am confused. What exactly mean "weak mars" . What means "destrutive Mars". If we look at Haydrich chart who had fantastically positioned Mars in aries house 9 - in 0 with Jupiter we could said that is very happy , brave , and right person. But he was a mass murder.

In Gotovina s case, we found Mars totally isolated from the rest of the chart. His Mars is - without aspect, peregrine, on the last degree of a sign. His ruler Mercury gone to Libra where Mars dont fills good. From peregrine to debilitation. His Mars in weak house. So - good question would be, - why he suceeded in such level in the area where he couldnt suceed on any logic if we respect astrology.

If you go more detaily from his chart you ll see that his Mars is tottally out of conception of the rest of the chart. All important planets are in Libra, ruler of AC , goes also to Libra, and final disposition is Venus in Libra on 29 degree .

Jupiter in Leo represents his early escape to France (Leo) . 8 house represents fights and high protection which he had there. Sun in Libra as dispositor must put him in the position of power.

But Mars is avoided in all this story.

So I think , on my opinion , that two most importantn planets of his are on 29 degree of a sign. And I think, more and more, that final degrees are very powerful, very wise and precise. Symbolically they learned all this through previous degrees.

So my question to you, is, why he became famous in area which is represented by Mars, if we know that his Mars is essentialy and accidentally debilitated totaly.
As long as you remember me I ll never be too far