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Birthday trips - from the outrageous to the irresponsible
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Do you support the logic of birthday trips for solar returns?
No way!
78%
 78% 
Yes I do!
18%
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Not sure
3%
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Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seriously contemplated trying to get away from my current solar return as it features Sun plus 4 planets in the 6th house and I have already been sick this week so that's not very reassuring. But I've decided instead it means I must do my exercises and eat a healthy diet all year ... or else!!! Sick

Tara
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mattG



Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was not the infant Oedipus sent abroad to avoid his fate? Didn't work for him did it?

Overindulgence in cake would seem a minor vice compared to what he got up to. Sick

Matt
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ciuboda



Joined: 08 Oct 2004
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me relocating on SR it's working fine. I've been using it for my clients for about 4 years and proved to have good results.

In my opinion the problem is the level of understanding of SR.Changing your location on your birthday you will not alter your future but you can optimize it. SR chart shows more how you are dealing with things in your life in the comming year. And the events that are need to be happen will occur. You cannot avoid a divorce for example by changing your location. But you can change your perspective on this event. For sure there is a big difference between Virgo Rising and Sag rising on SR.

Also you can deal with a hard transit from Saturn differently with planets in 12th house in SR compared to moving in a place where this planets comes in 1st house.

Everything in SR chart - esp. Asc and houses - it's about your perspective about the following year. One who expect to radically change his life by moving in another place is completely wrong. But you can relocate to have a better view of some things or to be optimize some activities planned for next year.

In conclusion: SR relocating works fine. I have many customers who travelled on their birthday and things were fine. They know that are not doing this to avoid events in their lifes but to get a better approach.

Dan
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Last edited by ciuboda on Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dan

Thanks for adding a bit of balance and giving us another view on this. I'm sure the astrologers who do this have a conviction that it's the right thing to do. I wonder where this thinking came from and how old it is. Can you tell us if anyone in particular influenced your approach? And does anyone know of any historical examples of this? I think it would be interesting to discover more about when and where this idea took root.

Deb
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ciuboda



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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb,

Things start to clarify in the moment when I start reading works of persian astrologers -> started with Ben Dykes 'Persian Nativities' translation. Vol III is practicaly a solar revolutions manual.

Secondly it's a matter of logic: in a SR chart you cannot change planets placement in signs. This means that the SR planets position will activate the same area in your natala chart no matter where you are. Secondly transits and progressions are not influenced by your location.

In the end I think you can use SR more as an elective chart. You can choose your location in order to redirect some energies.

For me the moment when Sun returns to its natal placement it's like a battery recharching. Practically on that degree and minute Sun will have the exact vibration (amount of light) as in your moment of birth. It's like you are a radio tuned on a specific freq and only once a year you can receive a signal. And ,similar to moment of birth, the location from where you are receiving this signals are important.

Most important in a SR is the Ascendant/Risign sign. It's one of the time lord of the year along with profected Ascendant.

For SR you should bear in mind the followings:
- nothing will take place in SR outside natala chart. You can have Sun-Venus-Jupiter in 2nd house and you can still have money issues.
- you need to know more about that person: the current status on all areas, future plans etc.
- the most important thing is to see how SR and natal chart are working together. Here I'm using a lot midpoints and Lots.
- SR as standalone chart is last thing to check. And if you are relying only on this chart you can make huge mistakes.

I can understand pro and against opinions regarding SR. But for me it's hard to accept extremes. SR it's a tool. In order to use it properly you need to know how to use it. And I think that curently our approach on SR is somehow limited. It's also interesting to notive connections between SR charts.

As an example:

I have a astrotwin sister - a person born on the same moment as me and close location. There is 1 degree difference on rising sign. And we had the opportunity to locate ourself in different places on the world and we notice important changes in how we approach things. For example in 2010 I've been home in Bucharest and she was in Osaka, Japan.

She has a Cancer risign and me Aquarius. And my life was more crazier compared to her. It was a first year in many when she was able to settle down back home in Romania and do some work. For me it was all Aquarius mood - sudden changes and need for independence.


Dan
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is good, useful discussion Dan, thank you. But to clarify, are you saying that the idea of relocating is not traditional as you understand it from PN vol III, but that you personally like the idea of moving to a different area to get a different reception of the energies?
Quote:
For me the moment when Sun returns to its natal placement it's like a battery recharching.

I agree; but my own views is that the physical reception of the planetary energy is like altering the affect of a planetary transit; but that a solar revolution concerns a symbolic return to the natal chart, so it only concerns the astronomical return of planets to the natal positions.
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Sunny Dawn



Joined: 18 May 2007
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: I think it works... Reply with quote

From what I have seen, taking the birthday trip does seem to make a difference in one's experience for the year. I'm rather amused at all the folks who are spouting criticism in a righteous way who I am nearly certain have never followed the effect over a decade (or even a half decade) using their own horoscopes and those of people they know well.

Also, the argument about "intent" is a sloppy one. Either the effect is observed, or it isn't. The individual's moral intent has nothing to do with it. I see the same sort of sloppy reasoning from the "natural birth" crowd in astrology - who seem to believe that "good" moms don't do anything to alter the birth time of the baby, which would include using any type of anesthesia, while “bad” moms actually consult an astrologer to “choose” the birth time if they are planning an induced delivery or a C-section.

If you believe in the impact of changing location, you probably see it being related to Einstein’s space-time continuum. Let’s review that for a moment, folks. In the older classical mechanics, time is treated as universal and constant, being independent of the state of motion of the observer (subject). In other words, events don’t change because of the subject’s motion to a new location. There is nothing wrong with this view – it works well in our day-to-day life.

Einstein opened up Pandora’s box and showed us that time was related to velocity and gravity. An object traveling at a super-human speed would experience time more slowly than we would on earth. A space traveler traveling at a velocity that approaches the speed of light could take a 20 year trip and return to Earth and find that hundreds of years had passed. In other words, the outcome in time is altered because of one’s motion and also one’s frame of reference. Put a little differently, the duration of time can vary for various events and various reference frames.

In some way that I can’t demonstrate mathematically, I think that location may influence the course which time follows in the same way that we know velocity does. It doesn’t do this in our day-to-day lives, but it may do it at the moment of the Solar Return, which establishes the “reference frame” for the coming time interval (one year). This might depend on the existence of some weird “hybrid” dimension that is neither temporal nor spatial (some string theories use this loophole at the sub-atomic level).

While I can’t prove this mathematically, I would rather not throw the idea out altogether. It would account for the impact I feel certain I observe. It would explain why certain events culminate at various times in a given year. Obviously, there is no way to establish an independent variable with this sort of thing. And a different SR location probably does not change the outcome of karma – if you are fated not to get that job, or if you are fated to drown that year, it doesn’t really matter whether you do it at the beginning of the end of the year. But I would rather entertain a possibility related to Einstein’s special relativity than I would fall back on these righteous, judgmental “moral” arguments. That’s all I’m saying.
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this is clearly an issue that divides opinion, I thought it would be a good idea to add a poll to this.
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margherita



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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: I think it works... Reply with quote

Obviously the first name I have in mind is Morin (Tom helped me to decoding Holden translation for an article of mine in Linguaggio Astrale )

This is a portion of the chapter:
First, it may be said that this follows much more evidently and certainly if you have tied the influx of the natal constitution to the natal place, but not to the native, as was stated above. Second, the virtue of the revolution can extend itself to a certain degree to advance or hinder the radical influx of the revolution of whatever place , either natal or extraneous that the native will have received it .....
And in this the infinite goodness of God shines forth, in that He will have allowed a man to be free to avoid or to mitigate, by a suitable change of location those malign acts that are going to happen after his birth


Anyway Morin mentions the use of solar returns with directions in the same chapter and those are cast for the birth place- he wrote.

In every case I have the opinion that Morin idea to relocate returns was an idea which was in the air; Campanella in his book "How to avoid the sidereal fate" (the title talks by itself) recommends many times to change place because of an eclipse falling on some given points of the natal chart.

Morin anyway says in the beginning of the chapter that astrologers located solar returns for the birth place.

margherita
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread needs a contrarian. Here is the logic for relocating: The solar return is for the year what the nativity is for the life. I know it is more complex than that, but let's play along a bit. When a person is born we say the cosmos, universe, whatever imparts an influence on the individual that he or she never loses. The influence is on the individual not the place. Therefore when the cosmos impresses it influence for the year on the native it does so on the native based on where the native is, not on where he was when he was born.

Very sensible, does it work that way? I'm not sure. I am sure that casting the nativity for the location at the time of the return does produce pretty good results. I am not so sure that we can't see the same thing if we cast the chart for the birthplace. I've rarely done both in order to check.

Now if the above is accurate, then making trips at the time of the return makes some sense. No we cannot avoid death by perpetually finding places where death is not indicated and going there to celebrate our birthday.

Frawley made an interesting observation that, in his opinion, casting the return for the birthplace tells us what is going to happen for the year, but casting it for a location tells us only the potential at that location. So if we travel and return the promise is not fulfilled. If we stay it might be.

I did this little experiment a long time ago with the chart of Arthur Ashe who won the Wimbledon Men's Championship in July 1975. Ashe was born in Richmond Virginia and his birthday is July 10. Now I don't know for a fact where Ashe was for his 1974 Birthday. I"m using '74 because the tournament is over by July 10, so he is still in his 1974 solar return.

Ashe's nativity promises honors in that both the Sun and Jupiter occupy the 10th house, the Sun conjunct the MC. The Moon, ruler of the MC is in the first (honors to the native) and the exaltation ruler of the Cancer MC, Jupiter is in a mixed mutual reception with the Sun: Jupiter in Leo, Sun in Cancer.

The 1974 SR cast for Richmond has the angles reversed. The traditional authorities almost universally said this was bad and they liked to predict death a lot when it happened. However the laws of astronomy are such that in the average human lifespan, this sort of thing happens about every 5 or six years (I think), and we only die once. What it seems to indicate is a year of upheaval and disruption. The chart will tell us if this occurs for good reason or bad.

The Richmond chart doesn't indicate all that much. There is an auspicious, for Ashe, Moon Jupiter conjunction in Pisces: these are the rulers of his natal MC. In the Richmond chart this occurs in the 12th house, but Pisces is intercepted so Hellenists would quickly point out it is really in the fortunate 11th sign. The Sun is now in the 4th with the ruler of the SR 10th Saturn in detriment in Cancer, so honors will be fleeting if they occur at all. This is true of all sports honors.

Moving to the chart cast for Wimbledon the Moon Jupiter conjunction is in the 9th but elevated near the MC which is in Pisces, and the Sun is rising on the ASC. Venus, the lady of his natal ASC however is near the 12th cusp, but she is the exaltation ruler of the MC.

All in all the Wimbledon chart is more indicative of honors than is the chart cast for the nativity, which shows upheaval in the coming year, and that is what happens to a Wimbledon Champion. And it should go without saying that one chart proves nothing.

Ashe devoted a great deal of time to his causes and his tennis friends pushed him away from these causes about this time. One has to devote extraordinary effort if one wishes to win major tournaments like this one. Also it should be noted that Ashe defeated Jimmy Connors in the final when Connors was in his prime. So there was a great deal of upheaval when he left one area of his life to pursue another.

Arthur Ashe
July 10, 1943
12:33 PM EWT
Richmond, Virginia, USA

On the con side is this salient fact. Solar returns are a predictive technique. If we use the SR location, we can't predict without knowing where the native will be on his SR.
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In stating the case for relocating Tom wrote:
Quote:

The influence is on the individual not the place. Therefore when the cosmos impresses it influence for the year on the native it does so on the native based on where the native is, not on where he was when he was born.


It looks as though no one has questioned this idea that “The influence is on the individual . . . ”, and “Therefore when the cosmos impresses it influence for the year on the native . . .” Influences and cosmic impressions? Can we be so sure that it's all about positioning ourselves on the planet and receiving rays and influences from the cosmos? Does it truly boil down to rays acting upon us? We may be unquestioningly assuming that rays shoot down and influence our material bodies and little gray cells, a version of a simplistic cause-and-effect story which has been favored by modern science.

Maybe it's more helpful to think in terms of 'As it is in the sky, so it is within the individual'. By that I mean that the outer sky may in some way more accurately serve metaphorically as an inner sky – the power of metaphor, symbols, and poetry. The motion above reflecting the motion within. This takes us into the realm of Platonic and Neoplatonic ideas, images and archetypes. There may be planetary rays but they would be more of a spiritual or psychic nature. It would be a question of connecting or aligning with them rather than being their passive target.


In my previous post I wrote:

Quote:
I start with the birth location with its inherent pattern of angular signs in the return charts. I do take a look at the current place of residence which is activated and validated through the possessions, daily routines, and concerns of the native.


Our personal story begins with birth, so the place of birth can reasonably said to always be with us. Our hopes, dreams, fears and daily drudgery take place at our current residence – “Home is where the heart is”, that sort of thing. So it looks like a pretty good case for a strong emotional or psychic connection to the place of residence and the return charts for that location. But running off to a birthday location – isn't that a turning away from our daily concerns and routines and therefore a strong break from the life that we are living on a daily basis? By dashing off for a few days we aren't aligning our lives with the sky, but rather breaking the connection between the sky and the life we are living daily. After a birthday getaway we return home and go right back to living our usual patterns of images and metaphors, thoughts and ideas, and wait for the “influences” to have their effect on the story we have been living. We have simply scampered off briefly in hopes of taking in a few rays.

As we all know, the planets don't change their zodiacal positions or interrelationships when the native relocates. The change is in the planets' relationship to the local horizon and, therefore, how they are viewed and experienced in that environment. As we are the center of our local horizon, that would seem to point to the real purpose behind relocating as inducing a shift in our own perception and an openness toward the images presented by those planets. But such an openness probably could be accomplished anywhere without the need to strategically place oneself in the supposed right spot at the supposed right time, so why not just stay home, enjoy your birthday, and ponder the return charts drawn for the location of your story's beginning and the place of your current daily activities and concerns?
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't particularly like the idea of rays and things entering the body - at least in the literal sense, but I still think the argument, it isn't mine, it's Morin's see Margherita's post, has merit. Let's look at it a bit differently. A child is born and we cast the chart for the location of the birth, and look at the chart and describe the child. Regardless of where the influence comes from or how it gets to the child, it is the child that is affected not the place. So far so good.

After this the issue revolves around what we believe is the nature of solar returns. If we think they are an influence to be experienced when they happen, then we need to cast the chart for the location and trips on the birthday make sense. If we believe they are more like primary directions or secondary progressions and are simply part of the unfolding of the life, then it makes more sense to cast the chart for the birthplace.

However we can see how progressions and directions unfold from the nativity. Returns are a bit different in that they are not part of the development of the chart. They happen at a particular time and when they happen the native is at a particular place and it seems to make some sense to cast them for that place.

Tom
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Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
However we can see how progressions and directions unfold from the nativity. Returns are a bit different in that they are not part of the development of the chart. They happen at a particular time and when they happen the native is at a particular place and it seems to make some sense to cast them for that place.


I've come to realize that returns are part of the development of the chart, most strongly with solar returns. The Sun at birth had a position on the zodiacal circle and will take that position again and again. Future identical placements are, in a sense, already there in seed form. Rather than mere disconnected events, the future zodiacal placements are a furthering and development of the Sun at, say, 24° Aries 27' 22''. If we are comfortable with secondary progressions showing an unfolding of the chart with their 1-day-equals-1-year, then we should be at home with a luminary or even planet showing an unfolding with its return to the same degree, minute and second of its natal position.

It's because of this unfolding and development that I think we need to keep the natal location with its unfolding pattern of return angles as the base. Just as most astrologers don't switch locations for secondary progressions I believe that some pondering of the matter will show that the return chart angles need the birth location in order to remain linked to what was inherent at birth.
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elumen



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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't help but to add an anecdote to this interesting discussion. A teacher of mine (a traditional astrologer) was a firm believer in relocating the Solar Returns. He went as far as traveling to Finland from the US to change his SR to a more desirable one. One year, as we were still going to his class, he bragged that he wanted to bring more students into his practice (he only had 2). That year he traveled to some exotic destination that made Jupiter (dignified at the time) prominent and angular in his Solar Return. That year indeed he had 5 times more students than usual, as the year was coming to an end though, they all dropped out, and in the end he ended up with the same amount of student he had started with.

I believe in relocation of the charts, it makes some difference, but it cannot alter the course of once karma entirely. In observing my solar returns year after year, they work for the location where I was during the Sun return, and the themes of the year maybe different depending on how far from your usual place of life you were, but they still play out in a way that builds on the previous year. My mom, for example, often spends her birthday with us in the US, while she lives in Eastern Europe. I observed both SR (for her natal city) and for our city where she spent about a month during the summer, and the later worked in her life more so than the natal SR, but it continued from the previous year.
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Olivia



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Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've found returns to be more accurate for the place I've been when the return happened rather than either my birthplace or my current place of residence. Strikingly so. And yes, I'm weird enough to draw up two locations, three if necessary.

For example, during several years, by birthplace and place of residence, I'd not have been travelling at all by looking at the SR, but given that I was in a different country on my birthday, it did indicate a lot of foreign travel - and that's just how it worked out.

Of course, this upcoming SR is a doozy. I'm already ill, and I'm looking at a solar return at my place of residence with five planets in the eighth, all opposed by Saturn in 2 (and all those planets are aspected by Saturn natally), with Moon as the odd planet out - on my SR IC, which happens to be conjunct my natal ascendant. I realise no matter where I am it's going to be a difficult year with Saturn opposing five planets, but I'd rather have a 9th/5th house crisis than an 8th/4th house one any day.

Trust me, if I could get away for this one, I most certainly would.

I have a client who's had the extreme bad luck of having Mars fall on their SR descendant two years in a row, and the person is going mad with Mars on the descendant issues, mostly marriage-related, some business partner related. It'll be angular for them next SR, too, and yes - in a case like that, I'd definitely recommend a holiday in another location around their birthday. It certainly couldn't hurt.
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