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Will I win prize in photo contest
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Paul
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Joined: 23 Nov 2009
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:

I'm sure this was a typo of yours, since Moon is clearly in the 5th, a succeedent house.


Maybe he meant Sun and Mars?
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe he meant Sun and Mars?


Yes that was a typo, I meant Sun and Mars

Quote:
The Sun is ill-disposed to signify for the 10th since it is in aversion to it!
Jupiter, however, is an entirely different matter


I'm sorry, I've never quite understood this concept, maybe you can explain this to me?
And whatever that means, does Jupiter still come out the winner??? Thumbs up
Thanks very much.

P.S> I'm female Smile
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Olivia



Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not quite sure, either.

Okay - the MC is Leo, and Sun is in aversion, I understand that. Sun's in Capricorn, and Cap can't see the MC by classical aspect.

Jupiter is the night ruler of Leo (by triplicity), but Jupiter's in Pisces, and Pisces can't see Leo by aspect, either.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Masha'allah's teaching, the application of one of the querent's significators to a benefic in a good house, having natural signification of the matter inquired about(which both Jupiter and the 5th here clearly have) brings perfection.

It is true Jupiter doesn't behold the 10th, but he doesn't have to do that since
Quote:
When relevant rulers do not apply to each other, observe which planet(s) is joined to the Moon or lord of the ascendant. This planet can and will perfect the matter, but only under the following conditions:

a. If the planet applied to is a fortune, and it is in an angle, or in a strong place, the matter will be perfected, and reception is not necessary (although always desirable). The indication ‘strong place’ refers however to four things:

• Strong through essential dignity
• strong in sect
• strong by phase to the Sun
• Strong by house position


"The Foundations", issue 1, Winter Solstice 2006. by Steven Birchfield&Martien Hermes

Regards,
Goran


Last edited by cor scorpii on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Olivia



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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Goran. I thought you meant Jupiter could see the MC, that's why I was confused.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm sorry, I've never quite understood this concept, maybe you can explain this to me?


I'll try Smile

According to Lilly,a planet is ill disposed when
- peregrine, retrograde, combust, and
- cadent from the Asc or the house of the thing demanded so he doesn’t behold the house[30º or 150º from the house] or at least the Lord of the house, although in this respect it is better for the planet to aspect the house rather than the ruler of the house.

Steven Birchfield, "The Living Signs of the Zodiac":

Valens makes a statement in Book I of his 'Anthology' that is rather important. He is specifically discussing the nature of the zoidia and says,

"And all things that the ruler is at times accustomed to produce by its own nature, whether good or base, or lesser or greater, each one of the zoidia will also produce according to whether the figure description of its ruler is operative or unprofitable."

The 'figure description of its ruler' is simply whether or not the zoidion, where the ruler is posited, can or cannot 'see' the ruler's domicile. This infers that it's not necessary for the lord of the zoidion to be in his domicile for the sign to effectively function, but in order to be 'operative' he must see it. The zoidion [and thus the 'house' or 'affairs of life' which were the responsibility of that zoidion] became dysfunctional and adverse when the 'lord' could not see it. This was a serious situation as "the stars found in these zoidia [in aversion] became inharmonious. And sometimes they bring about hostile conditions, sometimes separations and banishments."


Hope this clarifies the issue.

Regards,
Goran
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goran,
Thank you for taking the time to explain this in detail.

Regarding this:

Quote:
When relevant rulers do not apply to each other, observe which planet(s) is joined to the Moon or lord of the ascendant. This planet can and will perfect the matter, but only under the following conditions:

a. If the planet applied to is a fortune, and it is in an angle, or in a strong place, the matter will be perfected, and reception is not necessary (although always desirable). The indication ‘strong place’ refers however to four things:

• Strong through essential dignity
• strong in sect
• strong by phase to the Sun
• Strong by house position


In terms of my horary, I believe you are considering the relevant rulers to be Mars and Jupiter or the Moon and Jupiter - yes?

In part (a), it says:

Quote:
If the planet applied to is a fortune...


are you referring to Mercury as the planet being applied to by the Moon? Or are you referring to Jupiter, which is also being applied to, but the Moon applies to Mercury first. Because if it is Mercury that is being applied to, then Mercury is not in strong shape, and would that really qualify under the rules that you have listed?

If you are referring to Jupiter, then yes, I think the rules of perfection would work here.

Thanks much for your help in understanding this Very Happy
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In terms of my horary, I believe you are considering the relevant rulers to be Mars and Jupiter or the Moon and Jupiter - yes?


No, actually - the relevant rulers are in this case Mars/Moon and the Sun, the ruler of the 10th(quesited matter).

Quote:
are you referring to Mercury as the planet being applied to by the Moon? Or are you referring to Jupiter, which is also being applied to, but the Moon applies to Mercury first. Because if it is Mercury that is being applied to, then Mercury is not in strong shape, and would that really qualify under the rules that you have listed?


No, Mercury is only carrying the Moon's disposition further to Jupiter, meaning nothing ends with Mercury, i.e. he isn't the final arbiter in this case(luckily!) because if it were, nothing would come of the matter - it is in its detriment and cannot receive the Moon in Pisces+it's a square.

From "Foundations" again Smile

A series of applications culminating in a received application to a benefic will perfect the matter. The only exception to this is cases of life and death in which a benefic happens to be ruler of the eighth house and where in addition there is no reception between the benefic and the significator of the querent; the querent will die of his illness.

The main point is that each planet, as it applies to another planet, commits its disposition to that planet. The applying planet ‘pushes’ its disposition onto the second planet so to speak. Then the second planet may in turn ‘push’ its disposition onto yet another, or it might reject the disposition because of lack of reception in which case the matter is destroyed.So whatever planet is last in this chain of applications is very important in determining the outcome of a question. Sahl called this planet the ‘receiver of the disposition’, and it decides ultimately whether the matter will be perfected or not. Careful analysis of this planet informs us of how this success or lack thereof will come about. Any affliction of this planet can destroy the matter, even if it was perfected and the promise seemed fulfilled.


True, Jupiter could have been in a better shape since he is out of sect and occidental, in an occidental(feminine) part of the chart - all the factors which lessen his ability to deliver what is promised by his essential dignity.
However, although I don't think you'll win the first prize, I have a reason to believe it may be one of the most desirable ones.

Regards,
Goran
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The main point is that each planet, as it applies to another planet, commits its disposition to that planet. The applying planet ‘pushes’ its disposition onto the second planet so to speak. Then the second planet may in turn ‘push’ its disposition onto yet another, or it might reject the disposition because of lack of reception in which case the matter is destroyed.So whatever planet is last in this chain of applications is very important in determining the outcome of a question. Sahl called this planet the ‘receiver of the disposition’, and it decides ultimately whether the matter will be perfected or not.


Got it! I re-read all of your posts and now I understand fully where you were coming from. Fascinating! Is this Ma'shallah who said this?

Goran, thank you so much for your patience, and I'm hoping that your words come true! Thumbs up

And one more thing - the reason all of the planets are so closely aspecting each other is because as I recall the results will be posted Feb 1st or thereabouts, so the "timing" of the degrees makes sense.

Oh, and for what it's worth - the North Node is in my 2nd house. I know, I know, it has nothing to do with my horary - but it's better than the evil South Node! Very Happy
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, according to this excellent article from "Foundations", this is the teaching of Masha'allah himself.
I'm fascinated by its clarity and logic, and I made it a cornerstone of my horary practice.

Regards,
Goran
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 596

Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked the top entries...I didn't make it... Sad

You know, what's further ironic is that there are two pictures in there that are almost EXACTLY like two of my entries - the same landscape, the same angle, the same general effect! In fact, I even thought one of them was mine - but in fact, they were taken by someone else. Can you believe it??

Seems like evil Mercury did me in...but thanks to all for helping with the horary.

- Taurus7 Smile
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, but sad nevertheless Sad

No prize, but the pictures taken by the others just the same as yours...that's probably hard to bear Smile

Sorry to hear such news, taurus7. Mercury is probably the culprit here.

Regard,
Goran
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Taurus7



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Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No prize, but the pictures taken by the others just the same as yours...that's probably hard to bear

I know, I can hardly believe it. If you were to put the two pictures side by side, you would see the incredible resemblance!! Of course, I am of the firm opinion that mine were better... Confused

Quote:
Interesting, but sad nevertheless

Very sad - Sad

I think what we can conclude from this is that regardless of the strength of the final planet that is the receiver, if the "messenger" is debilitated, perfection will not be achieved. Furthermore, regardless of whether the significator in question is the Sun, if it is close the other significator, it is not perfection, it is combustion and hence a debility.

But you know what - judging from 1000s of entries can be a fairly daunting task and can sometimes be subjective. The fact that two pictures that were almost exactly like mine makes me come to the conclusion that those two pictures "could" have been mine - therefore, I will just have to find other photo contests to compete in. I know my pictures can win. Thumbs up

Thank you very much for your analysis though, I learned something from you.

Taurus7 Smile
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think what we can conclude from this is that regardless of the strength of the final planet that is the receiver, if the "messenger" is debilitated, perfection will not be achieved.


Good point. The main lesson for me here is that you should never underestimate the destructive power of a planet in its detriment; Bonatti seems to be right when he points that out. Should have been more attentive to his admonition in this regard.
In any case, this has been a valuable learning experience.

Regards,
Goran
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you didn't get a prize? I'm so sorry T, at first glance of the horary I would have bet good money that you'd have won a decent prize. However, as you point out:
Quote:
I think what we can conclude from this is that regardless of the strength of the final planet that is the receiver, if the "messenger" is debilitated, perfection will not be achieved.


The Moon applies first to a debilitated Mercury by square without reception. My first thought here was, does such a weak Mercury, ruler of the 11th house AND the 8th, have enough of a charge to carry the Moon's light forward towards Jupiter? Mercury is the natural significator of photography so with hindsight we might conclude that the horary is telling us that the photos just aren't "strong" enough to merit a prize. As well as ruling awards, it is worth remembering that Jupiter also signifies judges, so one way to interpret the chain of aspects here is to say that you (Moon ) present your photographs (Mercury ) to the judges (Jupiter ) but not only are the photos "weak" because of Mercury's detriment, we also see Jupiter residing in the other sign of Mercury's detriment: Pisces.
It would seem that the Moon is trying to flow towards the largesse and reward of this powerful Jupiter but she cannot get her influence to move beyond this somewhat crippled Mercury. Shame Sad


Better luck next time T. I'm sure you'll go from strength to strength in your photography career! Thumbs up
Cheers...

-Pete-
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