Wedding Election Chart

1
I have been asked by a friend (who is an astrologer herself) to take a look at the proposed times for her daughters wedding. Naturally, as its her daughter she wants to elect the best time possible and is nervous about making a mistake.

As is the way with so many electional charts the window of time is very small. In this case simply 3 hours!

The proposed time slot is

13.00-16.00 , 22nd October , 2011, Kelso, Scotland

Unfortunately, I very little time for astrology just now so I am putting the data up but confess I have had little time to study the chart in detail. However I will summarize my initial observations and hope fellow Skyscript members will offer some insights.

In terms of ascendant we have a choice of a Sagittarius, Capricorn or Aquarius rising. Generally a fixed sign is preferable for endurance and I therefore considered Aquarius Rising. Saturn is well dignified in Libra. However, its combust the Sun! That has put me off an Aquarius or Capricorn rising time. So I have tended to focus on the mutable Sagittarius rising option. The MC is in the fixed sign of Scorpio at the outset. I understand my friends daughter has Scorpio quite prominently in her chart. Jupiter is in Taurus in the chart. Jupiter is disposited by Venus as its domicile, triplicity and bound ruler. Venus is in detriment in Scorpio.

So for the ascending sign its a call between a dignified, combust dispositor (Saturn) or a peregrine benefic dispositor (Jupiter). I prefer the latter although there is no avoiding the reality that both planets (and the Sun) are disposited by Venus which is in detriment in Scorpio.

The issue is the Moon. Its at the end of Leo most of the afternoon and only goes into Virgo at around 15:41. Its peregrine in both signs. Traditionally a planet is weak at the very end and very beginning of a sign. Which is worse here though? I would generally regard this more of an issue at the end of a sign. Especially for a long term event (hopefully!) like a wedding. I notice this puts it in the bounds and face of Mars. On the other hand the very end of Leo puts the Moon on the powerful royal fixed star Regulus. This does offer some fortification.

I have given serious thought to the 13:00 time itself. This does put the Sun near the MC. Although its a Libra Sun in fall. Still its the only Sun we have that day! I dont fancy waiting too long after 13:00 as Pluto is rising up to the ascendant.

My ideal chart is Sagittarius rising and Moon in Virgo but that is not astronomically possible! I suppose an option is to wait until the Moon goes into Virgo at 15:45. This puts the MC in Sagittarius with the POF conjunct it. The Moon is still in the 7th by Placidus. However, its in the 8th by whole sign. I suppose it depends how much weight you give to having Saturn combust the Sun but moving out of this condition. Either way, though its still under the beams of the Sun.

I would appreciate any feedback as I will be giving my friend the link to this thread and she will be checking responses. As with many electional exercises there is no great time, just the least worse one!

Here is the chart for 13:00
Image
Last edited by Mark on Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

2
With the election for Queen Elisabeth the Ist' Coronation (in my mind), I think the best option for this wedding is to have both Lights fortified indeed: Sun culminating and Moon on RFS Regulus. That should generate enough strength to confront unavoidable hardships, and seems to me the best of the several options you discuss, Marc.
Last edited by hervaro on Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Herman

http://www.hervaro.be

3
A couple of possibles:
Image
This puts Alphecca on the MC, and more importantly, keeps the South Node well clear of the 7th house, Jupiter stays angular, and Sun joys in 9. But it's still a Saturn hour.

Or perhaps
Image
Which gives us a Jupiter hour, South Node clear of the 1/7 axis, Moon right on Regulus, Vega on the ascendant, and a Venus/Fortuna conjunction, with Venus being the triplicity ruler of Fortuna.

Just a couple of quick suggestions. I prefer a Jupiter hour for a wedding, and I don't like the nodes in 1/7 for a wedding, either.

A Sun-Saturn conjunction in Libra is said to bring honours more than not, because Saturn is fairly happy in that terrestrial state.

You have a bit of time to fine-tune it of course, these are just a couple of quick thoughts.

4
Hi Olivia,

I should clarify my friend had no choice in the date or general timing of the chart. She obviously isn?t thrilled with the chart options!

Thanks for spending the time on this. I had thought planetary hour rulers would be worth checking as we have such a tight window of time to choose from. Just didn?t have the time to look.

I am surprised you go for Capricorn rising chart though. Surely cardinal signs on the ASC/DESC angles are not ideal for a wedding? Isn?t that more important than any planetary hour ruler? Or do you feel the fixed MC/IC compensate for that?

Also where does the idea of a Sun-Saturn conjunction bringing honours come from? I have only ever seen combustion as a weakening condition. Is the idea here that since Saturn is exalted in Libra it is less harmful and its ability to cause harm also weakened by its being combust? I still don?t like the ascendant dispositor being combust. It indicates hiddeness and possibly secrets coming into this marriage.

I take your point about the nodes with a Sagittarius rising chart. I suppose that was another factor for choosing a Capricorn rising chart. Still the nodes aren't that close to the Ascending/Descending degree.

I guess when you get to this level of fine tuning the choice of house system is going to effect how we judge things a lot. I work with whole signs (but look at placidus for planetary strength), you use Alcabitius and my friend relies exclusively on Placidus. That is why I displayed the chart in that system.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

5
Ideally in electional charts we should consider the radical charts of those concerned and this traditionally takes precedence over other considerations.

I now have the natal data for the bride and groom. Her data is 27/12/83 22:10 Glasgow , Scotland, UK (verified by birth certificate) . Her fiancee has data of 20/03 /78 15:00 GMT Salta, Argentina, 24S47 65W25. The exact time for the groom is still being verified but this is the best we have just now.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

6
Here are the charts for the prospective Bride and Groom:
Image
Image
Not so so good that the Moon falls in the Bride's natal 12th house in either Leo or Virgo with quadrant houses. With whole sign the Moon in Virgo is in the first house. Mars the MC ruler with Scorpio is also in the 12th house. Tr Pluto is on the Bride's Sun in Capricorn indicating the transformative nature of the event for her. Transiting Saturn is on the Bride's Mars. Its interesting that her natal nodes are very close to those for the wedding. The Brides Jupiter is in Sagittarius so an ascendant in this sign could be conjunct her Jupiter. Jupiter seems the Lord of the geniture although it is out of sect. Equally, despite my reservations about Capricorn rising Jupiter is applying by Rx to a trine of her Sun and Mercury Rx in Capricorn is her ASC ruler. Since Aquarius is on the cusp of the Bride's 6th house this rising sign seems worth avoiding.

Looking at the Groom's the chart the Leo Moon is clearly more compatible with his own Leo Moon. However, a Sagittarius rising chart is more problematic as it falls in his 6th house. His ASC/DESC axis is Cancer-Capricorn so this seems to strengthen the case for considering a Capricorn rising chart after all despite the general concerns about a cardinal sign on the ascendant.

Overall, the specific natal configurations point more to a Capricorn rising chart being preferred taking account of both partners despite the generalised argument for avoiding a cardinal sign on the ASC/DESC angle. Olivia's suggested times therefore seem worth consideration. I think working around the hour of Jupiter suggested by Olivia may be worthwhile.

I should mention that my own astrology astrology Association has lasted 36 years despite having Cancer/Capricorn on the ASC/DESC axis! The compensation is an Aquarian MC/Leo IC and the Sun, Jupiter and Mars in fixed signs. I think its a help that the MC ruler Mars is fixed in Leo in the wedding chart. With a Leo Moon the DESC will also have a fixed ruler.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

7
Hi Mark -

The sun/Saturn in Libra bringing honours is from Lilly's Merlinus Anglicus. Had to type it out, so please forgive the modern spellings.

......but Saturn in conjunction with the Sun in Libra upon the Midheaven in any person's geniture, assuredly produces honour to the native, by reason of the great dignities of Saturn; and this the rather, in regard to the Sun by analogy, is more favourable in this respect, than by his debility contradictory. Understand the same in other cases of like nature.

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Thanks Olivia,

Very interesting. That post could be the wellspring of a thread all on its own over on the traditional forum! Have you come across other quotes like this where combustion seems to be outweighed by essential and accidental dignity?

In this instance I note Saturn is also on the natal Moon/Mars conjunction of the Bride.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

9
Actually it's more because of essential debility. It's a bit of a lengthy passage, which is why I didn't type all of it out, but Lilly says Sun/Saturn in Leo would have the reverse effect because there the sun is strong and Saturn is weak.

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Olivia wrote:
Actually it's more because of essential debility. It's a bit of a lengthy passage, which is why I didn't type all of it out, but Lilly says Sun/Saturn in Leo would have the reverse effect because there the sun is strong and Saturn is weak.
Ahhh I get you. I had been thinking more of Saturn in terms of dignity but I see Lilly's point about the Sun being weakened in Libra. I presume the kind of logic could be applied to a Saturn conjunction to the Sun in Aquarius?

Still I was taught that you generally dont want a malefic like Saturn angular and especially on the MC in an election?

I do have a copy of Merlinus Anglicus around the house somehere so I will check it out.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

12
If I didn't look upon the couples' charts, I would have suggested 15:41, with Aquarius Rising and Saturn (being dignified and well posited in 9th) in conjunction with Lord of 7th, Sun in his joy. And Moon conjunct Regulus, of course, as Regulus is right now at 00:00 Virgo.

As Olivia pointed out, because Sun is weaker than Saturn it would not be really bad for a wedding chart, especially because Libra is Venus' house, the Lady of marriage and love.

About the hour ruler, isn't really important to me, as it's about temporary activities and not about events with "permanent" effects (such as a wedding). So, for the short term approach, I'm going for a Saturn hour, because he's better than Jupiter in terms of accidental and essential dignities.
Amor ordinem nescit.
Love does not know order.
- Saint Jerome -