An update. We now have a more precise time for the groom. Its changed the birth time back over over two hours. The source is the groom's Mother.

Here is the new chart:
This new chart gives a Gemini/Sagittarius ASC/DESC axis rather than Cancer/Capricorn. Plus Sagittarius is now on his 7th rather than his 6th. Hence some of the reasons I previously favoured the Capricorn rising chart are no longer evident in the groom's new chart.

Mark

Within the time frame then, Sag is your only option. Both Aquarius and Capricorn rule one of the bad houses of either the bride or groom - you can't put the same house as the 6th, 8th, or 12th of their natal charts on the ascendant.

Sag it is. But I would go with either very early or very late to keep those nodes as far away from the axis as possible.

Tzadde wrote:

If I didn't look upon the couples' charts, I would have suggested 15:41, with Aquarius Rising and Saturn (being dignified and well posited in 9th) in conjunction with Lord of 7th, Sun in his joy. And Moon conjunct Regulus, of course, as Regulus is right now at 00:00 Virgo.

Here is the chart you suggest:
You make a good point about an Aquarius Rising chart bringing Lord 1 and 7 together. Unfortunately, waiting until the Moon moves into Virgo places it in the 8th house by whole sign.

Looking at the chart with her preferred house system my friend is also concerned that this places the Sun-Saturn conjuction in the 8th by Placidus. Something that concerns me with this time is the other royal fixed stars involved. The MC is on Antares and the IC on Aldebaran. Both could be helpful if you are planning a battle or competitive struggle. However, their strongly Mars like association doesn't seem compatible for a wedding. This is without even getting into the fact that Aquarius rules the bride's 6th house.

Mark

Olivia wrote:

Within the time frame then, Sag is your only option. Both Aquarius and Capricorn rule one of the bad houses of either the bride or groom - you can't put the same house as the 6th, 8th, or 12th of their natal charts on the ascendant.

Oh dear. This is becoming quite a saga! My friend tells me she is suspicious of the Gemini Rising chart provided by the groom's mother!!!She was given yet another time before that that came up with a late Taurus rising time. She believes the groom is much more Taurean than Geminian!

With all this confusion over the groom's exact time of birth I plan to eliminate it from further consideration. At the least the Bride has an accurately timed chart. Personally, I would still eliminate Aquarius rising as it coincides with her 6th house by whole sign. However, my friend pointed out that in Placidus houses an earlier rising degree in Aquarius falls in the bride's natal 5th house. Would you apply the same kind of logic using Alcabitius houses as a reason to still consider an Aquarian rising degree?

Olivia wrote:

Sag it is. But I would go with either very early or very late to keep those nodes as far away from the axis as possible.

Yes but nodes are not the only things to watch out for. There are malefic fixed stars at the beginning and very end of Sagittarius.

My friend has spend literally days on end trying to come up with an elected chart for this wedding. She feels everything she looks at has something wrong somewhere. Not least the placement of planets in the 8th house. In desperation she has started to look at later times and is considerating a Pisces rising chart at 16:45! This certainly puts the Sun-Saturn conjunction in the 7th by placidus. It also ensures Neptune has cleared the ASC and the NN the MC. Still by Placidus it puts the Moon in the 6th. I wouldn't work with this time myself as it puts the Saturn-Sun conj in the 8th by whole sign.

Mark

As Ramesay said, if the birth time is unknown, the chart of the moment will do!

I was doing a natal chart for a client, and she had Gemini rising, very early degree, and it was just - off - with everything. So I told her a good sneeze would've put her in late Taurus and that made a lot more sense going over life events, etc.

Turns out she'd rectified the chart herself because she 'couldn't possibly be a Taurus rising!' (slouching off into a corner here with all my Taurus...)

Modern astrology sneaking in there and prejudicing us, I think.

Hopefully the chart of the moment will not knock out every possible sign, but if it has to be worked around, it has to be worked around.

Elections are fun that way. None of them are perfect and there's invariably something heinous that needs to be pacified, covered up, or stuck in a house that will put a damper on it. That Sun/Saturn conjunction will have to go somewhere and the time-frame is exceedingly limited. 8's not bad given it's in Libra (where will Venus be, though?), could mean a nice inheritance.

The one I was tearing my hair out over a few posts down? They've decided to postpone it until next year. And they would like some help. I'm not sure I can do it again.

But for the most part I do enjoy electional work.

Hi Olivia,

As Ramesay said, if the birth time is unknown, the chart of the moment will do!

In many ways it would be much simpler that way! The problem here is that we seem to have very accurate data for the Bride but the angles are uncertain for the Groom. So its not a question of just ignoring natal influences and working from general principles. On the other hand is it wise to elect natally with just one party in mind when this might be inimical to the other?

Elections are fun that way. None of them are perfect and there's invariably something heinous that needs to be pacified, covered up, or stuck in a house that will put a damper on it. That Sun/Saturn conjunction will have to go somewhere and the time-frame is exceedingly limited. 8's not bad given it's in Libra (where will Venus be, though?), could mean a nice inheritance.

Very true. There is always an element of compromise. Its not a job for a perfectionst! Moreover, sometimes the cosmos is telling us something. I remember trying to elect a good time for a series of driving test(s). I could only choose pre-set times on specific days. Try as I might all the times seemed quite poor either generally or in terms of natal promise. Despite several attemps I repeatedly failed those tests. Sometimes things are just not meant to happen in coincidence with our will. I am not suggesting this wedding election is like that but its obviously tougher with such a narrow time frame.

Incidentally, I found that previous thread you were referring to. I hadn't realised this had come up so recently:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6064

I know its out of context somewhat but I was amused to find this statement from you there considering your earlier recommendation here:

Cardinal signs aren't that great if you want a marriage to last, and Libra tends to be good for courtship, but bad for marriage - this is all tradition as well. It's too fickle.

Also in a marriage election, you don't want a malefic angular at all unless it's one of the significators Saturn isn't a significator here, and while being exalted might make it somewhat less evil it's still going to cause harm because that's what Saturn does, and retrograde is a serious affliction - one that makes an essentially dignified Saturn act considerably worse than it normally does.

Of course Saturn would be a significator with Capricorn rising here. Plus in this instance the Sun, Saturn, Jupiter , Venus, Mercury, Mars, MC, IC, and DESC are ALL disposited by domicile rulers in fixed signs!

Mark

Hi, Mark
I really would like to help, but elections take a long time, and I am out of the door as I am traveling tomorrow.

I have two advices:

People worry a lot about elections, after they start to use them. It is like Solar revolutions. You never look at them, and the first year you start to see all those awful things "oh, I am gonna die" stuff. With the elections it is the same: when you start to use them, you can easily end up electing the best time to cook your dinner.

Life will just unfold itself as it always do. If you happen to chose the "wrong" moment, this is not deterministic. It is not an horary. If it were, I could elect a time to be president. As it isn?t, we can only work with "probability shifts".

Try to just skip the really bad. Eclipses and oppositions will cut out some weeks. You should avoid venus squared the malefics. Always avoid afflicted moon (scorpio, capricorn, oppositions and nodes).

After that, you start to see if you can look for connections with the natal chart. Again, avoid the really bad and setlle for what reality gives you. Transits to natal charts usually are much more important than the ruler of the electional chart (and I have tested this in a lot of charts).

It is all the advice that I have without writing a book (which I believe nobody would buy: astrologers are very happy with the way the do stuff, even if doesn?t work).