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I'm concerned about my longevity...
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jupiter1st



Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 28

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:01 am    Post subject: I'm concerned about my longevity... Reply with quote



Hi guys. I analyzed my longevity and came up with 42 years. The Sun gives 120 years which doesn't make sense. The Moon is placed in a masculine sign. So my Hyleg is the Ascendant. Mars trines the ascendant as the triplicity ruler. He is the only candidate as he has dignity in the ascendant degree. He is angular, in his triplicity, term and face. He will give 66 years. He conjuncts south node. 1/4 th of alcocoden years will be subtracted. It makes 49.5 years. Mercury is highly detriment in my chart. It will at least take away 20 years. 49.5-20= 29.5 Jupiter trines alcocoden. He will add 12 years. 29.5+12=41.5 Mercury can take away more years, however, Jupiter can add more years too. So they will conpensate each other.

Is my method of calculating accurate? Van Gogh's chart looks like mine in sense of longevity so much. I found exactly 37 years for him and posted it here in the traditional section. Detriment Mercury rules my 4th house and I can't help thinking that my end of life can be quite stressful. 8th house ruler Saturn is placed in the 3rd, revealing that I have fear of death and obsessed with thinking about it. What do you guys think?


Last edited by jupiter1st on Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

personally, I haven't seen any value in using the Sun and the Moon as their own Alcocodens. Here I would give the Sun as Hyleg and Jupiter's full years as Alcocoden.
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jupiter1st



Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply Konrad. How do you think Jupiter can be alcocoden? The Sun and Jupiter don't seem to have strong connection. Jupiter is the night triplicity ruler of Aries and this is a diurnal chart. Besides, the wide trine between the Sun and Jupiter is out of sign.
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Eddy



Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With the Sun, Venus and Jupiter exalted, I think that they are very well placed and healthy. Following Ptolemy’s procedure in Tetrabiblos book III-10, http://www.oocities.org/astrologysources/classicalgreece/tetrabiblos/tetrabiblosbookiii.htm#side47 , I think it’s the Sun that needs to be focused on. Maybe the Sun, Moon in Aries focuses on the head and combined with Mars conjunct the MC gives emphasis on Mars. Perhaps astrology would relate stroke to these Aries and Mars issues. The emphasis on the X-th house could relate it with work issues. Better avoid stressful or dangerous work.

However (medical) astrologers must have somewhat researched the matter to find out if all rules according to iatromathematica lead to reliable results. I have no experience with it and I might be wrong in anything I wrote above. Anyhow, I’d be careful with such predictions and not worry too much about when or how death will occur. Better concentrate on when and how to live.
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 685

Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jupiter1st wrote:
Thanks for your reply Konrad. How do you think Jupiter can be alcocoden? The Sun and Jupiter don't seem to have strong connection. Jupiter is the night triplicity ruler of Aries and this is a diurnal chart. Besides, the wide trine between the Sun and Jupiter is out of sign.


I use any of the triplicity lords and I don't use orbs, just sign relationships. I started to study the length of life of a lot of random people from Astrodatabank and I found the strict adherence to the orbs to be ineffectual. I don't think the length of life is flawless anyway as a stand-alone technique. Other factors must be considered.
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: I'm concerned about my longevity... Reply with quote

Dear Jupiter 1st:

As Eddy said, you have a good chart for health ( and for everything else except for your own anxiety).
You are able to live a lot, believe me. The only way to destroy you is a very, a VERY, a verrry strong primary direction,( I did not look at this kind of study, I simply took your chart as its face value).
For example, if Saturn will arrive to the ASC ( I don´t know but may be it already happened, in your chart), in this case if a benefic do not help the native can die. Everybody in this earth will not obey to the alchocodem´s years if a primary direction is very strong.
Many people would like to have a healthy chart like yours, believe me.
But Mars is in conjunction to Mercury and is the more elevated planet in the chart, ruling both the Sun and the Moon. The rational soul is measured by Mercury and the sensitive soul by the Moon. Your mind is not able to think clearly because of the fear caused by Mars, being near Mercury, which is weak,detrimental and in fall.

This is how traditional astrology can deal with psychology, and it does better than years of psychotherapy!

I hope that my words, pronounced with the very best of my intentions, were able to help you in the present issue.

Clelia



jupiter1st wrote:


Hi guys. I analyzed my longevity and came up with 42 years. The Sun gives 120 years which doesn't make sense. The Moon is placed in a masculine sign. So my Hyleg is the Ascendant. Mars trines the ascendant as the triplicity ruler. He is the only candidate as he has dignity in the ascendant degree. He is angular, in his triplicity, term and face. He will give 66 years. He conjuncts south node. 1/4 th of alcocoden years will be subtracted. It makes 49.5 years. Mercury is highly detriment in my chart. It will at least take away 20 years. 49.5-20= 29.5 Jupiter trines alcocoden. He will add 12 years. 29.5+12=41.5 Mercury can take away more years, however, Jupiter can add more years too. So they will conpensate each other.

Is my method of calculating accurate? Van Gogh's chart looks like mine in sense of longevity so much. I found exactly 37 years for him and posted it here in the traditional section. Detriment Mercury rules my 4th house and I can't help thinking that my end of life can be quite stressful. 8th house ruler Saturn is placed in the 3rd, revealing that I have fear of death and obsessed with thinking about it. What do you guys think?

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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I use any of the triplicity lords and I don't use orbs, just sign relationships.


Do you use Dorothean triplicities? If anyone uses Dorothean triplicities, then they would give Sun, Jupiter and Saturn triplicity dignity in the day or night.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2395

I believe both Bonatti and Ibnu Ezra used them in lifespan indicators?

Also, Van Gogh's ASC ruler was Moon in Sag in the 6th (I have this as well - I was born the same year as you too), which is probably not the most happy and healthy spot to be. I have it square Saturn and have dealt with a lot of health issues, especially the lungs (Jupiter). His is square Neptune and mine is conjunct Neptune. I don't deal with escapism like he did (although I am sure we are/were equally capable of feeling the weight of the world on our shoulders), but I have an auto-immune disease and many allergies to medications, and have had some close calls from that. I also deal with depression, like Van Gogh. Extreme poverty is likely with Moon as ASC ruler in the 6th as well.. I just don't see it as a good comparison to your chart. Like Deb Houlding and myself, you have Sirius close on the ASC, which may act as a beneficial influence on your health and longevity. I know there have been many times that luck has saved me from difficult situations (like you I have Jupiter in the 1st as well).

15 Cancer seems a bit popular. Deb has a similar ASC:
http://i52.tinypic.com/2q8ymxe.gif

And mine:
http://i52.tinypic.com/33ok3dg.gif
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tanit!

I do use Dorothean triplicities. And you are right: the triplicities lords of fire are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn. If you have a nocturnal chart Jupiter rules the first part of life, Sun the 2nd and Saturn the last one.

In Horary I use the same.

As for your depression and health issues perhaps it is due to the square Moon Saturn. I don´t know if saturn is in Pisces or Virgo: it looks like it is in Virgo. Saturn divides the sphere of planets and the divine sphere of the not mutable things, in the ancient point of view. So Saturn always has to do with not being able to absorb and deal but with rejection Alergy for example has to do with Saturn, in my point of view. The body has kind of a shell for protection: nothing can pass.
But I don´t know if I got your point.

Clelia



Quote:
Quote:
Tanit wrote:
Quote:
I use any of the triplicity lords and I don't use orbs, just sign relationships.


Do you use Dorothean triplicities? If anyone uses Dorothean triplicities, then they would give Sun, Jupiter and Saturn triplicity dignity in the day or night.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2395

I believe both Bonatti and Ibnu Ezra used them in lifespan indicators?




Also, Van Gogh's ASC ruler was Moon in Sag in the 6th (I have this as well - I was born the same year as you too), which is probably not the most happy and healthy spot to be. I have it square Saturn and have dealt with a lot of health issues, especially the lungs (Jupiter). His is square Neptune and mine is conjunct Neptune. I don't deal with escapism like he did (although I am sure we are/were equally capable of feeling the weight of the world on our shoulders), but I have an auto-immune disease and many allergies to medications, and have had some close calls from that. I also deal with depression, like Van Gogh. Extreme poverty is likely with Moon as ASC ruler in the 6th as well.. I just don't see it as a good comparison to your chart.

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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Allergy for example has to do with Saturn, in my point of view. The body has kind of a shell for protection: nothing can pass.


That is a good analogy - I had not thought of it that way: that an allergy is the body's way of rejecting things that are foreign to it. Supposedly I am overly "sensitive" to my environment as part of the auto-immune disease, which I think Neptune describes well in connection with the Moon in the 6th, but I am sure traditional astrologers would find this well enough via Saturn.

Van Gogh and I both had/have a love for animals and are/were vegetarians as well (have been most of my life - am actually vegan). He would feed a starving dog with his last coins, which is basically what I would do - a very Sagittarian influence. He was probably rather gaunt-looking and not very healthy as a poor vegetarian. Also, Van Gogh had his Moon/Jupiter conjunction with the South Node, which is not easy at all (the nodes in conjunction with the Moon are said to be difficult and it decreases the good of his essentially dignified Jupiter).

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread a bit! Just thought I'd share my slightly similar chart...
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jupiter1st



Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 28

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Dear Jupiter 1st:

As Eddy said, you have a good chart for health ( and for everything else except for your own anxiety).
You are able to live a lot, believe me. The only way to destroy you is a very, a VERY, a verrry strong primary direction,( I did not look at this kind of study, I simply took your chart as its face value).
For example, if Saturn will arrive to the ASC ( I don´t know but may be it already happened, in your chart), in this case if a benefic do not help the native can die. Everybody in this earth will not obey to the alchocodem´s years if a primary direction is very strong.
Many people would like to have a healthy chart like yours, believe me.
But Mars is in conjunction to Mercury and is the more elevated planet in the chart, ruling both the Sun and the Moon. The rational soul is measured by Mercury and the sensitive soul by the Moon. Your mind is not able to think clearly because of the fear caused by Mars, being near Mercury, which is weak,detrimental and in fall.

This is how traditional astrology can deal with psychology, and it does better than years of psychotherapy!

I hope that my words, pronounced with the very best of my intentions, were able to help you in the present issue.

Clelia


Thanks for your reply Clelia. You are so right about my Mercury. It is not only detriment, retrograde and with Mars but also the ruler of 4th and 12th house. So its harm is more related to fears, anxiety which is ruled by 12th house. I haven't had an easy childhood as well. My Mercury sadly rules the 4th house which is also the end of life. I hope the theory "every planet goes to his dispozitor sooner or later" is accurate in classical astrology. His dispozitor exalted Jupiter has a partile trine with Mercury.Had it been not there, I might have gone mad so far. Mercury is angular in the 10th house. Yet, a detriment planet in an angular house may reveal it's weakness more. I don't go with the theory that "angularity strengthens" as far as my highly detriment Mercury is concerned.

When it comes to longevity, I can't help thinking of Van Gogh's chart because I exactly found his real life span with longevity analysis and posted it here. His chart looks like mine in sense of longevity. I consider my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden. Mars is angular, in his triplicity, term and face. He can give 66 years. South node conjunction will take away one fourth of alcocoden years which will then make 50 roughly. Jupiter trine will add 12 years which makes 62. Mercury is highly detriment which is why it will subtract at least 20 years. My life span, due to this analysis is at most 42 years. Mercury can subtract further years though. I can't think of my Sun and Jupiter as hyleg and alcocoden as their relationship is weak in the chart.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1117
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Van Gogh ended his own life, so to talk of longevity with his chart does not seem very fruitful, IMO. We have no idea how long he might have lived had he not killed himself. To morose on such topics does not get you anywhere anyway, other than to cause fear and mental anguish. I am sure most people die before they are ready to go and we should all enjoy whatever time we have left. Be happy you have lived your 32 years and whatever days that follow, as many before and after you will not have as much as that.
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jupiter1st



Joined: 22 Mar 2011
Posts: 28

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also, Van Gogh's ASC ruler was Moon in Sag in the 6th (I have this as well - I was born the same year as you too), which is probably not the most happy and healthy spot to be. I have it square Saturn and have dealt with a lot of health issues, especially the lungs (Jupiter). His is square Neptune and mine is conjunct Neptune. I don't deal with escapism like he did (although I am sure we are/were equally capable of feeling the weight of the world on our shoulders), but I have an auto-immune disease and many allergies to medications, and have had some close calls from that. I also deal with depression, like Van Gogh. Extreme poverty is likely with Moon as ASC ruler in the 6th as well.. I just don't see it as a good comparison to your chart. Like Deb Houlding and myself, you have Sirius close on the ASC, which may act as a beneficial influence on your health and longevity. I know there have been many times that luck has saved me from difficult situations (like you I have Jupiter in the 1st as well).


Tanit, unlike Van Gogh, you don't have harsh nodal aspects. Squares may be tough but they are motivating and they tend to bring success. Your ascendat ruler in the 6th makes you a hard-worker. You may be drawn to conditions which make you serve others but you put faith in whatever you do thanks to Moon-Neptune conjunction. Your ascendants exaltation ruler Jupiter in the first house, in his triplicity helps you survive many difficult incidents. The only detriment planet in your chart is Venus and she has a very nice mutual reception with the Sun. Your Mars is domicile and angular. You don't have water-fire conflict like I do. Your watery ascendant feeds your earthy Sun. Your ego and the way you present yourself is highly compatible with each other. So despite your Moon in the 6th house, your chart has very strong features.
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Jupiter1st:


Quote:
Thanks for your reply Clelia. You are so right about my Mercury. It is not only detriment, retrograde and with Mars but also the ruler of 4th and 12th house. So its harm is more related to fears, anxiety which is ruled by 12th house. I haven't had an easy childhood as well. My Mercury sadly rules the 4th house which is also the end of life.


No, Mercury is not the ruler of the end of things. On the 4th house: Arabic method): The fisrt ruler of the triplicity rules parents in the first quarter of life, the 2nd rules lands in the 2nd quarter of the life and the 3rd ruler rules the end of things in the thrid part of life, so in your case it is Mars ( earth triplicity).

Quote:
I consider my ascendant as hyleg and Mars as alcocoden.


May I ask you why you discarded the lunation before your birth,( the SAN) as the Hyleg and the Sun as alchocoden? And why you did the same with the Part of Fortune, which as the SAN has conditions to be the Hyleg and the Sun the Alchocoden? Lala Happy

Clélia
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jupiter1st



Joined: 22 Mar 2011
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Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
May I ask you why you discarded the lunation before your birth,( the SAN) as the Hyleg and the Sun as alchocoden? And why you did the same with the Part of Fortune, which as the SAN has conditions to be the Hyleg and the Sun the Alchocoden?

The Sun can not be alcocoden because he gives 120 years which doesn't make sense. I didn't consider the lunation because the ascendant seems to meet the conditions. If it failed as alcocoden, I would consider part of fortune and then the lunation.
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Clelia Romano



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 353
Location: São Paulo

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jupiter1st wrote:
Quote:
May I ask you why you discarded the lunation before your birth,( the SAN) as the Hyleg and the Sun as alchocoden? And why you did the same with the Part of Fortune, which as the SAN has conditions to be the Hyleg and the Sun the Alchocoden?

The Sun can not be alcocoden because he gives 120 years which doesn't make sense. I didn't consider the lunation because the ascendant seems to meet the conditions. If it failed as alcocoden, I would consider part of fortune and then the lunation.


I do not agree that the Sun must to be discarded because it is impossible to live 120 years.
If you do not believe in the rules, why to study them?

Masha´allah says that a wise man can not ask questions in his own behalf: now I can see how right he was. Laughing
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