Tom wrote: As for overuse of "determinations" please understand the critical importance of this word and the critical importance of Morin's theory of determinations plays in his astrology. It's not a just a word. It is an integral part of his philosophy and astrology. [/color]

This is actually an interesting word when you think about it. If I was the translator, I'd use "determination" myself.

The Latin is "determino", which means define, set a limit to, and conclude. I never thought about it until you mentioned it, but the sense here is like the planet has "set its mind" to signify something.

I never thought about it until you mentioned it, but the sense here is like the planet has "set its mind" to signify something.

Exactly. One of the problems with traditional astrologers, and I include myself in this, is our obsession with technique. This goes several ways, i.e. that technique is no good this technique is fine, he doesn't use traditional techniques, and so on. In Morin's case the contemporary traditionalist notes that Morin doesn't believe in the use of general significators they way most traditionalists, do therefore he is anti-tradition. We tend not to look beyond that. However, if we do look beyond it we see that Morin is not so much abandoning a favored technique, but rather he is encouraging the traditional use of the planets in a more precise way. That precision is the result of his use of what he calls determination.

For example the Moon is women in our lives, among other things. Fine. This is true to a point. The Moon has an analogy with all things feminine, but, he argues, it does not follow that the Moon is all those things in any chart or anything we want it to be when it is convenient. The position in the houses determines the Moon's specific meaning and therefore allows better prediction. The Moon in the 5th cannot be our spouse, our mother, our female servants or employees, our sisters etc. It can be our daughter however. Therefore when a transit or direction or progression hits Moon in the 5th, we predict for the daughter or some other 5th house signification of the Moon. We can eliminate the mother, spouse, etc.

This is more than a difference of opinion. It is the heart and soul of his methods. Of course no one is required to accept it, but if we are to study Morin, we need to understand this.

Tom wrote:

I am fascinated by Morin and I look forward to receiving the copy of his Book 21 of ?Astrologia Gallica?, which I bought through Amazon a couple of days ago.

Glad to hear of your interest in Morin. When you get the book, keep in mind the first section is theoretical and the second more practical. Your question would be answered, at least in part, in the second section in the chapter titled, "A Planet in One House Rules Another." or something like that.

It isn't just the 6th house either. For example the ruler of the 2nd (wealth) in the 7th (partner/spouse/lawsuits) would indicate money coming from partner spouse or lawsuits. I've never read Coley but he seems to be saying pretty much the same thing.

One area where Morin differs is the idea that the opposite house takes on the meanings, albeit weaker, of its opposite. In other words, illness can be seen in the 12th as well as the 6th. Death can be seen in the 2nd as well as the 8th and so on. So ruler of the 12th in the 1st could be seen as portending illness and not just other kinds of 12th house meanings. I used to reject this as out of hand, but if I keep it in mind when looking at charts, I'm not so sure the rejection of this idea is correct. Enjoy the book.

Well, I've learned that 2nd house often associates with death of other people (8th from 7th) and in practical manner at some forum were a lot of discussion about charts of murderers, professional soldiers, felons.
They have strong connections of 2nd -12th or 2nd-10th houses.
Like I have Mars in 10th ruling 6th and 7th in Aries and 2nd in Scorpio.
I've automatically came under suspicion whether I've killed somebody at war.I'm happy that I didn't.
But definitely most my incomes from professional field, Mars in 10th ruling 2nd. And I had some heart complication after flu when I was teenager, and that shown by younger years period of time, indicated by 1st quadrant where Mars located in 10th, while Mars ruling 6th.

Here is an example, maybe not the best example of determination, but one that I found quickly and seems to serve the purpose. John Adams, Second President of the US:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/jadams.jpg/] This is an example of determination chosen because of its appropriateness to the topic. Whether or not this is a good or bad rectification is beside the point as is any discussion of rectification here and now.

Look at Jupiter. Jupiter is in Capricorn in the 11th house. It rules the 2nd and the 10th. Jupiter has an analogy with nobility, generosity, philosophy, religion, etc. This describes Adams? friends (among other 11th house things). The fact that Jupiter is in its fall qualifies the friends. They may not al be savor, or they are monied and that is their main interest in Adams. The potential of the chart, is that Adams will gain honors (10th house) as a result of the efforts of his friends.

In late 1796 ? early 1797 Adams? progressed Sun conjuncts Jupiter in 11. In 1796 Presidential elections were not conducted the way they are today. There was no direct election of the President or delegates to the electoral college. The state legislators voted for members of he electoral college and in turn those members or delegates voted for President. The person receiving the 2nd highest number of votes became Vice President.

When the time came for electioneering or in those days backroom deals made with the various delegations to get the job, Adams went home. He let his friends do that sort of work for him. They succeeded as they are represented by Jupiter in his chart and delivered the honors as represented by the 10th house. However, Jupiter, as mentioned is in his fall, and Adams did not enjoy a very successful Presidency. He was not re-elected, his political rival and Vice President, Thomas Jefferson got the job.

Adams, career, his friends or political ?advisors? his political fortunes are all tied up in this 11th house ? 10th house relationship. But note it is triggered by a progression not to the MC, but by a progression the planet that represents his friends. The spotlight was on them and they came through by placing him in a place of honor (ruler of the 10th in the 11th)

The also Sun has a natural analogy with honors and is therefore the general significator of honors. The Sun is in the natal 9th (politics among other things) and rules partnerships as well as enemies. Both played a roll in his election. His political enemies wanted Jefferson, but they came up short. They are not 11th house.

Is this predictable as in is it reasonable that an astrologer could have foreseen this using Morin?s methods. I think so. There are other things going on at this time in his chart and given what our proverbial astrologer could have known about the politics of the era, I think he could have called it. If the astrologer was asked about this sort of thing many years earlier, he would not have known a bout the American Revolution or the Constitution, but he could have predicted high honors as the result of the efforts of friends, but without ultimate rousing success (Jupiter in fall) in the period 1796 - 97. That might be all that was reasonable from this progression.

Tom wrote:For example the Moon is women in our lives, among other things. Fine. This is true to a point. The Moon has an analogy with all things feminine, but, he argues, it does not follow that the Moon is all those things in any chart or anything we want it to be when it is convenient. The position in the houses determines the Moon's specific meaning and therefore allows better prediction. The Moon in the 5th cannot be our spouse, our mother, our female servants or employees, our sisters etc. It can be our daughter however. Therefore when a transit or direction or progression hits Moon in the 5th, we predict for the daughter or some other 5th house signification of the Moon. We can eliminate the mother, spouse, etc.

Tom,

This is very interesting and it makes a lot of sense! So a 5th-house Moon could be the daughter because the Moon is women in general and the 5th, the house of children. I guess then that a 6th-house Moon is the illness (I have that and I have had a recurrent health problem) and a 9th-house Moon is the native?s religious faith or long-distance journeys.

In his Book 21, page 18, Morin shares a hilarious joke about the general significators, which, he says, are ?contrary to experience?. Says Morin: ?Cardanus seems to ridicule this very idea in ch. 6 of his Liber de Revolutione in the Commentary when he states that Ptolemy introduced a great deal of confusion when he assigned several meanings to one significator, and made the Moon, for example, the significator of the body, the morals, the health, the wife, mother, daughters, maid-servants and sisters. Says Cardanus: ?What then must be the condition of the Moon in the horoscope of one whose wife died in childbirth but himself lived a long life, who had many healthy daughters but also maid-servants who ran away, who had a sound body but a mother who died young, and who himself showed a poor moral character??

Hilarious.

And I wish to thank you for your interpretation of John Adams?s chart. It was very interesting.

Best regards

Yuliana

Martin Gansten wrote:A one-word description would be 'dense'. While I personally quite like Baldwin's translation, you might prefer Lucy Little's 1974 version, Astrosynthesis, which is more of a paraphrase and definitely an easier read. You can get a second-hand copy (hardbound) for under $20.

Thank you for the recommendation. Mr Gansten. By the way, the next book on my Amazon wish list is "Primary Directions". I hope to order it very soon.

Best regards

Yuliana

If the Moon in the 5th is the daughter then is it the case the Moon is all the daughters.

How would Morin have tackled a situation where the person had 4 daughters and last Tuesday one won a Nobel prize, another died of Lung Cancer and the other two he unexpectedly found in a compromising position in the same bed.

Some people have 10 plus daughters and doubtless we will find some extreme daily/weekly/monthly outcome anomalies both then and now.

To what extent can the 5th house Moon as a symbol of the 'daughter' accomodate this?

If the Moon in the 5th is the daughter then is it the case the Moon is all the daughters.

Probably the same way any astrologer would have to handle the same thing, regardless of system. Figure out by what is going on in the life and what is going on in the chart, and then which daughter is most likely indicated. Since this isn't the daughter's chart, we can only expect broad indications. The point is not whether or not we can determine which daughter, but rather that by eliminating everything but the daughter(s) we have a more precise system.