margherita wrote:

Tom wrote:I have only one reason for posting this on the traditional forum. I'm hoping Margherita sees this as she is most likely to know of this astrologer. Is he well known in Italy? Europe? A friend asked me and I've never heard of him.

My idea his practice is mostly based on Volguine and Barbault. But he sometimes published in his journal Ricerca 90 aphorisms about solar returns from Giuntini and Argoli.

He is not neither a traditional or psycho astrologer, but very near to French astrology of 1900.

Hello everone,

His book has been translated in French (by someone else then Discepolo, since he does not speak french), which I use for the cook-book part. And yes his practice is modern "traditional" (as L. George was, for instance). His practice is different from Volguine, however, since he does not delineate solar return house cusps against natal, as does Volguine thorougly, plus many other techniques (progressing the Ascendant, Sun transits, aspects becoming perfect within 24h of birthday or planetary periods, as used by Junctinus, which Volguine explain thorougly). But with Volguine, Discepolo relocates, just because the former did it because of Morin. That's it. That's the way I understand the author.

His book must be read in conjunction with Volguine's to be useful, which I usually do.

About some delineations, that may look awkward: often time he mentions that this has been his experience on this particular subject. So, I think me should give the chance to the runner

About Andr? Barbault, people must know that he does not use solar returns (nor primary directions). In fact, he was very deceived of a particular solar return in the beginning of his practice, because of a separation with a girlfriend he did not see in the solar return...

Best regards,
Fran?ois

carriere.francois, thank you for your information that Volguine is inspiration for Ciro Discepolo.
At the moment I'm reading the book on Solar Returns by Volguine and read the same as Ciro stays for the 3rd house:

"The Third house is that of the mistress in masculine horoscope, and of the lover in the feminine one".

House of Love Affairs.

Hmmm, as far as I'm aware neither one of the traditional authors stays about the 3rd as being the house of the love affairs. I can't find the logic neither by derived houses.
Maybe I should re-examine the quote by Robert Hand:

"If something is traditional doesn't automatically means its right, and if something is modern does not automatically means its wrong"

I'm reading Ciro Discepolo's blog and have noticed another very thought provoking statement of his.
He names the 11th house as the "House of Mournings". People who are writing to him on his blog are very fearful when they see some configuration of planets (stellium for example) in the 11th, especially Saturn in 11th, so he advices them to relocate the Solar Return.

Here is a quote by Ciro:

"Yes, when we have a strong 11^ House in the ASR, we can suffer for a mourning, but no always. Many times it means also quarrels or danger for a life, but danger is not a mourning. Besides a possible mourning can regard also a friend and not a relative."

ASR stands for Aimed Solar Return, or intentionally relocated Solar Return.

On the fallacy of Solar Return Relocation

When I first studied astrology, I did modern and working with a modern astrologer, I relocated about 5 years in a row. Then I started traditional astrology and saw how worthless the relocation exercise was. Let me give you one example. In a particularly awful return, Moon/Libra separated from Saturn/Cancer and applied to Mars/Cancer in an almost partile square.

For the return cast for the natal birthplace (no longer living there at the time), the Moon fell in the 9th, Mars/Saturn in the 6th.

For the 'relocated' return - and I do not recall the rationale made for relocation, the Moon fell in the 10th, Mars/Saturn in the 7th.

What happened: within a week of my birthday two events occurred within 48 hours. my nephew overdosed on heroin devastating his family, especially my sister-in-law; in addition, one of my paternal aunts unexpectedly died. sister-in-law is 7th from the 3rd (brother's wife) or the 9th which was the location of the afflicted Moon for the birth place return. paternal aunt is assigned to the 6th house, 3rd from the 4th (father's siblings) which is where the Mars/Saturn conjunction was located for the birth place solar return.

My wife and mother suffered no major problems that year which would be consistent with the afflicted Moon in the 10th and Mars/Saturn conjunction in the 7th of the relocated solar return.

Going further, the Mars/Saturn conjunction in Cancer of the solar return was recapitulated in the nephew's horoscope who died; he had Mars/Saturn conjunction in Scorpio which was partile conjunct the MC of the birthplace solar return.

If anybody believes relocated solar returns have any validity after this story, let me direct you to a few gravesites. I am sorry but the entire premise and practice of relocated solar returns is total crap.

Zagata: thanks for the mention of solar returns in Chapters 9, 10, and 11 of A Rectification Manual.

As I detail in Chapter 11, when solar return planets are conjunct natal lots, the lot is typically activated during the year. Worth concern are solar return malefics conjunct either of these lots within 2 or 3 degrees: the 6th house Lot of Chronic Illness or the 12th house Lot of Accusation, Exile, and Injury which are both Mars-Saturn lots.

Hi Dr. H,

Thank you for sharing with us your SR example, and I'm so sorry for the loss you had in the particular year.

As of the Solar Returns, I think both ways (relocated and SR for the birth place) works well. Because there are some very serious traditional astrologers (like Robert Zoller for example), who works with relocated Solar Returns. I don't say that Zoller must be right, but his great experience in this subject makes me to believe that the relocated solar returns should not be neglected.
Now, you gave us an astonishing example that the Solar returns for the birth location works quite accurate as well, and my conclusion would be that they work in both ways.

NatanEpsilon

Thanks for your kind response. My approach to astrology has been empirical and accordingly I operate on a "what works" basis. Not on a flippant basis, mind you, but starting with theory and what teachers say, then subjecting various methods to as many examples as I can find time to research. Based on my experience, I can't find any validity in relocated solar return, either for myself or for clients.

But mine is one opinion. If you can garner benefit from them, then more power to you!

Best wishes,

Dr H wrote:

My approach to astrology has been empirical and accordingly I operate on a "what works" basis. Not on a flippant basis, mind you, but starting with theory and what teachers say, then subjecting various methods to as many examples as I can find time to research. Based on my experience, I can't find any validity in relocated solar return, either for myself or for clients.

This is the approach I have also settled on although I cant claim to have done anything like the scale of research you have done. Having said that many astrologers claim their experience confirms the validity of relocated charts.

I well recall Bernadette Brady stating this in a workshop a few years ago. While she rejected the shallow notion of flying off for a good return chart she did argue that as her 'home' had relocated to the opposite side of the world from Australia the return chart was relevant for her new home in England.

Whether one accepts this view or not it occurs to me that such people make exceptionally good case studies on testing out the radix vs the relocated SR chart. I would be very interested to know if you have experience of such situations from your client work.

Mark

RegulusAstrology wrote:On the fallacy of Solar Return Relocation

If anybody believes relocated solar returns have any validity after this story, let me direct you to a few gravesites. I am sorry but the entire premise and practice of relocated solar returns is total crap.

I agree with you if you see relocated SR as a way to avoid events.

I'm using SR relocation for me and my clients and is working very well. For me relocating on your birthday is not to change events in your life but to improve how you are dealing with what will come. Also you can reduce some risks. My main goal on relocation is to clear 12th and 8th house and allow that person to have a better control of what will happend.

For example: Moon in 8th house is a difficult position because the person will lose energy (under all forms) for the entire year. Is not necessary to lose money or death appear in your life but that person will not be on his best shape.

Also I'm always relocating someone based on what he/she wants to do next year. If someone say that his priority is to change his job I will try to make a stronger MC - I'm taking into consideration also transits and progressions.

Try to see SR as a chart showing how you are dealing with events taking place that year. It's more a chart of 'levels of controls'.

Dan

Hi Tom,

Can I know the name of the yahoo group dedicated for study of the Solar Returns?
I'm interested in joining the group.

Thanks

Mark wrote:
I well recall Bernadette Brady stating this in a workshop a few years ago. While she rejected the shallow notion of flying off for a good return chart she did argue that as her 'home' had relocated to the opposite side of the world from Australia the return chart was relevant for her new home in England.

Whether one accepts this view or not it occurs to me that such people make exceptionally good case studies on testing out the radix vs the relocated SR chart. I would be very interested to know if you have experience of such situations from your client work.

Mark

Hi Mark. My primary clients were born half way across the world and have emigrated to the United States. Reviewing a string of solar returns over the course of ten years now, the birthplace solar returns have worked without fail. As inciteful as the study of single year solar returns can be, believe study of a series of returns for many years will yield the real takeaway findings.