Hi Clinton,

Thanks for your comments.

If you read carefully, I am not putting 'Committed Relationships' in 5th house.

Lilly?

Why am i supposed to research and go into depths of despair and bang my head against the wall to compare and contrast what he and his one time disciple 'Gadbury' wrote in his books. I base my findings on my experience.


Anyway. Point taken. I will 'Google' Lilly and see what he wrote and try to buy all of his books.

Sometimes I worry about an alarming trend regarding what is traditional and what is not, and the implications of it. We should be very careful I think in deciding what is 'traditional' and what is not - unless we are very confident that we have read and thoroughly studied a wide variety of traditional texts we should be careful before deciding what is traditional and what is not, and even if we have read every single translated text available on horary, there are still many which are not.

Let's try to be shrewder in our assumptions of what may or may not be traditional.

In my personal opinion there is some good logic (and yes, backed up in the tradition) of assigning sexual pleasures with the fifth house, and in Bonatti we have an example of where he does just that (I'll provide some quotations if I can find them). From memory they are along the lines of examining the fifth house with regards whether or not a woman has known a man and whether or not an affair will disrupt a marriage. I think at least one of the arabic astrologers says a very similar thing but my memory is blank on which one. Again I'll find a quote if I can.

Either way I think it's untrue that there's no tradition of using the fifth house to examine a sexual pursuit.

Now in my personal opinion nearly all horaries of this nature are 7th house, because we want to know whether we will have a sexual relationship with a given person, but sometimes I suppose it is possible we're more interested in is whether or not we'll have sex (with whoever) - this seems particularly relevant in an age of website or mobile apps specifically aiming toward sexual 'hookups'. I'm not sure whether I personally would use the fifth or seventh in this circumstance, but I'd at least be open to the possibility of the fifth here. You are more interested in asking about pleasure than about relationships after all.

However I still think that most people ask horaries about particular relationships than about sex itself or a one night stand with anyone.

I just want to put caution though on drawing a line on what we think is traditional and what is not - I think we would be wiser to be cautious in this. I also do not follow the logic of associating sex horary with the fifth house (which after all rules sex and is the joy of venus) with suddenly jumping to inventing a new zodiac, using modern significators etc.

cosmicdolphin wrote:hey peeps.

Has anyone had any luck with relationship charts where Lord of 1st is not aspecting Sun nor Lord of 7th but aspecting lord of 5th or Mars?

Just curious
Thanks
CD

CD

What was the original question? Sometimes I see sexual implications (when no real relationship) when the main significators do not aspect, but when Venus and the Sun do.

Astro brother Andrew Bevan stated:

I have got plenty of charts (horaries) regarding potential relationships that by their nature are due to start as affairs / love-affairs, where the lord of the 7th house is in the 5th.

In cases of blind lust, the South Node was almost always involved.

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

Lilly states in CA I, Chapter VII, Of the twelve Houses, their Nature and Signification. page 49:

As before we have said there are twelve signs, and also twelve Houses of Heaven, so now we are come to relate the nature of these twelve Houses; the exact knowledge whereof is so requisite, that he who shall learn the nature of the Planets and Signs without exact judgment of the Houses, is like an impovident man, that furnisheth with variety of householdstuffe, having no place wherein to bestow them.

This is the icon of Traditionalism, a man with Apollo(Sun) in the constelation of the Bull, a man who is ruled by Zeus(Jupiter), a man with Jupiter ruling his 9th house as the centaur is there and Zeus(Jupiter is Angular), stating:

...the exact knowledge whereof is so requisite, that he who shall learn the nature of the Planets and Signs without exact judgment of the Houses, is like an impovident man, that furnisheth with variety of householdstuffe, having no place wherein to bestow them...

Note page 53, Seventh House:

It giveth judgment of Marriage, and describes the person inquired after, whether it be Man or Woman, all manner of Love questions, our publique enemies; the Defendant in a Law?suit, in Warre the opposing party; all quarrels, Duels, Law?suits; in Astrology the Artist himself; in Physick the Physitian; Theeves and Thefts; the person stealing, whether Man or Woman, Wives, Sweetharts; their shape, description, condition, Nobly or ignobly born: in an Annuall ingresse, whether Warre or Peace may be expected: of Victory, who over-comes, and who worsted; Fugitives or run?awayes; Banished and Out?lawed?men.

It hath cosignificator Libra and Moon, Saturn or Mars unfortunate herein, shew ill in Marriage.
Of Colour, a dark Blacke colour.

The words, "Marriage", "...all manner of love questions...", "sweathearts"(that means man or woman, opposite gender), " It hath cosignificator Libra...."(relating marriage and relationships).

Andrew, I Do Not wish to give ammunition to the Modern's deviation, possible perversion from Lilly, but look at Lilly *8th house* matters and look at what he says about *signs pertaining to Scorpio, the organs of the body correlation*!

Andrew I respect all my astro brethren and have made simular errors due to my hypothesis on this or that concept, but am I being one to foster an illigetimate concept if I pervert the truth? I mean it's like John Frawley is looked at by many Ultra-Trads as a Renegade because he utilizes Outers yet Not ruling house cusps as I understand, but he builds solidly his work from Traditionalism with a few minor flaws according to Contemporary Traditionalist Authoritys.

If one read Anthony Louis's(when he was a researching Moderne) first book, Horary Astrology: The History and Practice of Astro-Divination, Loius as an adept Titan(Sun) in the virgin constellation, pointed out from his sources, that the 8th is the house of animal-like Penetration(sex), while the 5th is pleasurable courtships and Not nessasarily coitus or oral sex, in other words one could be a virgin and have many romances without fornicating!

And No, I'm Not trying to aid the Moderne argument(debate), but point out I'm hearing too much Piscean confusion about that house represented and Lilly had a reason he accepted or rejected certain things from certain authors didn't he?

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Just wanted to add some fuel to the fire. I think the 5th sometimes *does* work.

I've had a question asked, which was, "Will I find a boyfriend?" (a single woman looking on a dating website, asked in despair!). The 1st and 7th significators (Mercury and Jupiter) had no aspect to one another, nor to the Moon; but the Moon (at 29 Gemini) applied immediately to the Sun (at 1 Pisces at the time) which was ruler of the 5th (and of men in general)! I think it's likely to be a lover/sexual partner rather than a 'life partner'... The 5th, after all, rules pleasure. Just waiting to hear back from the querent as I set the timing as being right about now...will be interesting!

GH