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Sorry I couldn?t write earlier. The posts are very interesting. What Mark says about Cheiro?s psychic gift is correct. Interestingly, Cheiro never hid this fact, but spoke quite openly about it in his memoirs. However, this wasn?t a part of any technique or system?he seems to have had no control over it and it came into play of its own accord in his consultations. There are various examples of it in his memoirs.
I think Cheiro?s prediction about the Prince falling a victim to a devastating love affair perhaps should not be seen as a single event?it is more like a culmination of a series of events in the life of a royalty who happened to have a temperament and a personality quite unlike that of a royalty. I think there was an almost fatal contradiction between the inner self of the Prince and how the world expected him to be. Perhaps this is shown by the essentially dignified Saturn, the ruler of the ascendant, exalted in Libra. Saturn is at home too in the airy triplicity and in his own face. But he is in the eighth house. I also feel that there is something ?fatalistic? about the fact that Saturn is the most elevated in this chart?in fact all other planets are below the horizon. Jupiter, lord of the tenth, is in its detriment, angular in the fourth. But notice the partile trine between Jupiter and Saturn. The distance between Saturn and the MC is about forty-four degrees?the Prince abdicated when he was in his forty-third year. Saturn entered Aquarius (his ascendant) at the end of 1932 and by the time he had travelled to Mars? position, passing over the Moon, everything had happened. That?s the period of 1933-1937. Combined with all this is another hint at losing the throne for love?the fact that the lord of the seventh (the Sun) is afflicted by the lord of the second (Mars). Talking about the lord of the seventh, it is telling that he is in the fifth (pleasure/fun), given the Prince?s numerous romances. However, the Sun is peregrine and, counting by signs, in the twelfth from the sign on the seventh (hence in aversion). He won?t be able to manage the affairs of the seventh house and will rely on his despositor which happens to be the Moon. And the Moon is going to dictate quite a bit in this life. Mercury who is the co-significator of the seventh, is in the sixth house. Going further along reading ?signs?, I will not ignore that the Lot of Fortune (nocturnal chart) falls almost on the degree of the IC. The Moon is strong in this chart for more than one reason and if we compare instincts and emotions (Moon) with reason and intellect (Mercury), it is quite clear that emotions are a much stronger driving force than reason in the life of this person. What Cheiro says about ?hot? and ?cold? might be a reference to the presence of the Moon and Mars in the first house (though Mars is almost on the cusp of the second, but still), and what he says about changeability and inconstancy too might relate to this, and also to the fact that in his Book of Numbers, he says about the Sun?s position in this chart: The qualities of Gemini will be the main influence through this person?s life. But there?s one question we need to ask: What the world saw as the Prince?s misfortune, did he himself see it as that? I think he was admirably true to his love and to what he believed in and perhaps he never attached so much value to material wealth as any other person might do. I think Ben Dykes' discussion on ?Happiness in Medieval Astrology? is worth reading with reference to this point. (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/happiness.html) I think how the world viewed the Prince and how he viewed himself were two totally different things. In the end, he might have been happy and at peace with the life that he chose for himself (living in Paris with his love!).
Cheiro used a combination of palmistry, numerology and astrology in his work and he strongly believed in the doctrine of cycles. He seems to have used transits and planetary periods very effectively. At one point in his memoirs, he says that he had a ?peculiar system? of his own in which numbers, dates and time could be worked out to a remarkable extent. He also talks about the ?method? he employs in making predictions for the various countries of the world, at the beginning of his World Predictions (in which he tells us nothing, as usual).

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Mansoor wrote:
Going further along reading ?signs?, I will not ignore that the Lot of Fortune (nocturnal chart) falls almost on the degree of the IC. The Moon is strong in this chart for more than one reason and if we compare instincts and emotions (Moon) with reason and intellect (Mercury), it is quite clear that emotions are a much stronger driving force than reason in the life of this person.
You make lots of insightful points above. As you state the Moon is stronger than Mercury in the radix. Mercury is cadent in the WSH 6th. The Moon disposits Mercury from that planets sign of detriment and fall. Moreover looking at the derived chart from the Lot of Fortune the Moon in Pisces is very powerfully placed in the 10th place from the Lot. In many respects that Moon determined his actions.

One interesting point about this romance was the fact that the most eligible batchelor in the world chose a very plain distinctly androgynous looking woman. Is this a reflection of the Gemini theme mentioned by Cheiro?

Wallis herself had a massive stellium of 5 planets in Gemini:

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Simpson,_Wallis

Her mercury conj Edward's Jupiter and trine his Saturn. Her Saturn on his Uranus. Although untimed her birth seems to have been from 7am-11am so this would place her Libra Moon close to his Saturn.

There is some evidence Wallace Simpson may have suffered from a gender development disorder.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ke-up.html

In all accounts Wallace Simpson is described as a dominant, controlling personality and she most definitely 'wore the pants' in their relationship. Could she also be reflected in that Saturn? Its interesting that Jupiter in the WSH 5th house (the sect light dispositor) forms a tight trine to Saturn in Libra in the 9th. A possible reflection of his powerful attraction to this older, foreign, and very strong minded woman.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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The point you make about Gemini is significant. This seems to be supported by the stellium in Wallis Simpson's chart. Cheiro points out in the chapter on the House of Windsor how the period of Gemini-Cancer was 'bound up in the destiny' of the royal family of England.

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Hi James_m,

Cheiro was a good astrologer but in my opinion his myth/cult was developed by King Edward the VII (1841-1910), and in IMO British Secret Agency was behind it. Great Britain was the 'THING' in the late 19th century. If a future King says you are great all the Presidents/Kings would be eager to meet you and share their 'intimate' details :).

What we know about Cheiro?

Only to extent he has 'Written' about himself in his Books.

How much he was accurate?

Only to the extent he boasts about in his books.

Lets see what he writes about himself in his 'Cheiro Confessions : Memoirs of a Modern Seer"


It starts with a foreword by a certain army officer who heard a lot of praises about him during his sojourn in Mongolia.


Born in 1866. Claims to be a Count (which he is not) At the age of 14 goes to India all alone. Admitted by a secret school. At the age of 16 he is a master. At the age of 19 establishes his practise and shows that much accuracy and wonders which no one to date has been able to show in the history of man kind. Is there some catch?

So, whats his explanation is?

He has worked a lot.
He has psychic ability. :lala

About his King Edward the VIII prediction. That love affair might have been boiling for the years in the inner circles and Cheiro might have known it. About his prediction (in his book) that India would gain independence and state of Israel would be formed. Who was involved in these two incidents? British Government :)

Sorry to dispel the myth of Cheiro :brows
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

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Gryffindor

I dont disagree with you that this man probably distorted his humble origins beyond all recognition. And yes he may have used some deception to get by. We know he spent time in prison and his reputation in British high society never recovered from this. Did he really spend time in India or was that made up too? It certainly could have been invented to add a mystique to his work.

Despite all these personal failings it doesn't mean the man couldn't have possessed some extraordinary abilities.

If you are so adamant this is not the case how do you explain his quite remarkable prediction (made in 1930) that the King would renounce the throne over a woman he loved?
That love affair might have been boiling for the years in the inner circles and Cheiro might have known it.
No. That theory is refuted by the hard evidence. The abdication didn't happen until November 1936. If Mansoor has given us the right dating his book came out in 1930 before Edward had even met Wallis Simpson. They first met in January 1931. So your going to have to go back to the drawing board and find a new theory to dismiss this prediction.
About his prediction (in his book) that India would gain independence and state of Israel would be formed. Who was involved in these two incidents? British Government

Sorry to dispel the myth of Cheiro
Actually, your having the opposite effect on me! I am really intrigued by this man now! I love mundane astrology and this sounds a fascinating book even if a lot of his techniques are hidden away. Incidentally, the British government had no intention of creating a separate state of Israel or granting India outright independence in 1930. So the Cheiro predictions were impressive here too. Although any realist could probably see it was a question of when not if India became independent.

Still there were Imperialist die hards. For example, despite his prophetic insights into the dangers of Nazism during the 1930's Winston Churchill still clung to the totally romantic notion Britain could retain India as part of the British Empire. He still maintained this position after WWII but by then he was out of office and the new Labour government negotiated the terms of Indian independence and its partition.

The famous 'Balfour declaration' issued by the British foreign office after WWI had only ever promised a 'homeland' for the Jews not a separate state. The British saw this 'homeland' as being fulfilled by a unified Palestine with a mixed Jewish and Arab population. The first British proposals for partition didn't come until 1937. Britain didn't even support the creation of Israel in 1948 and abstained at the UN.

Equally in India the British government opposed Indian independence in 1930. Otherwise what was the point of Gandhi's famous civil disobedience campaign and salt march in 1930? The British government had no intention of simply surrendering the 'jewel in the crown' as early as 1930.

So the idea Cheiro made his predictions on India/Israel based on some insider information from the British government makes no sense whatsoever. Even assuming such highly sensitive government information was given out to a society astrologer/palmist it wouldn't have supported the predictions he gave. As I stated the British government opposed both Indian independence and a state of Israel in 1930.

Despite his faults maybe its time to give Cheiro a bit of credit?

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Mark,

Mark wrote:
Despite his faults maybe its time to give Cheiro a bit of credit?
I am studying Cheiro for the past 23 years, not this book alone but all of his books ever written on any subject (including his book on poetry :) ). So , I give him a lot of credit.

About the Indian independence and Israel as a state, I am not going into further debate about it. Because I dont agree with you. Things were decided long before 1930 and it was also seen that the future King i.e. King Edward VIII would not be right person when the time comes. He had to abdicate when the time came. So, an unusual way to quit. A love affair. A love by a King who had never shown any sign of settling as a married person before :). Morals and principles are for us, the common people. The things in the upper level have different plan and they are carried out as a 'Game'.

I mentioned 'Cheiro's World Predictions few months back in Skyscript along with prediction about King Edward the VIII. According to the publisher the Manuscript was sent to him for publication in October 1925. I am always intrigued by the Cheiro. When I say myth of Cheiro. You need to read all of his books. He deliberately creates an aura of mystique about him which I am certain is false.

Mundane Astrology is in my opinion the most difficult branch of Astrology and no wonder that you are rightly intrigued.

There is perhaps more to Cheiro then we know. But it is certainly not based on fair play

...Page 217 (Cheiro's World Prediction)

That Buddhists (Cheiro stayed in India?) and Muhammedans will join together to make India a united nation, is out of question....


P.s ...and you are right about that I should go back to drawing board to formulate the better explanation. Because that i did few years back. The problem with Cheiro is that first one gets intrigued, then impressed and then after few years and a lot of study smells something fishy. :)
Regards

Morpheus

https://horusastropalmist.wordpress.com/

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Mark wrote: One interesting point about this romance was the fact that the most eligible batchelor in the world chose a very plain distinctly androgynous looking woman.
Yes, that's so true and so weird! It's like getting hitched to a 'man' in woman's disguise! :???:
And almost all his relationships involved married women.

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mark,
thanks for elaborating, lol.. look what happens when a few of us start talking! i liked what you had to say and i have enjoyed reading all the posts here as it has been very interesting to say the least! regarding the quote that mansoor has highlighted of yours - i always think of mercury as the androgynous planet. it is interesting in that it is so close to the descendant in edward V111's chart in so far as he did make such a connection with a person with a focus in gemini and who i am told gave off this androgynous flavour. this is one of those examples where a planet on the descendant appears to have undue influence on the marriage partner. my thinking continues to be that the planet overshadows the sign position and that planets speak more directly then the signs.. i know that is a controversial topic in astrology but i am reminded of this here.. mercury forms the closest connection to any angle in edward V111's chart unless one wants to consider the almost exact square from moon to midheaven which everyone seems to agree was a dominant theme in his life as well..

thanks everyone for the conversation here.
Mansoor wrote:
Mark wrote: One interesting point about this romance was the fact that the most eligible batchelor in the world chose a very plain distinctly androgynous looking woman.
Yes, that's so true and so weird! It's like getting hitched to a 'man' in woman's disguise! :???:
And almost all his relationships involved married women.

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james_m wrote: i always think of mercury as the androgynous planet. it is interesting in that it is so close to the descendant in edward V111's chart in so far as he did make such a connection with a person with a focus in gemini and who i am told gave off this androgynous flavour...mercury forms the closest connection to any angle in edward V111's chart...
Yes, the Mercury/Gemini influence does seem to be powerful in the chart. With WSH, of course, Mercury falls in the seventh. Even the quadrant cusps have Virgo intercepted in the seventh, and I just thought I?d check a few of the basic lots and found the following (hoping I?ve not miscalculated):
Lot of Fortune conjunct IC in Gemini
Lot of Basis conjunct IC in Gemini
Lot of Eros in Gemini
Lot of Nemesis conjunct Jupiter in Gemini
Also
Lot of Spirit in Libra
Lot of Necessity in Pisces but quite closely conjunct Mars
Robert Schmidt says that the Lot of Basis which forms a sort of foundation for the chart is either with the Lot of Eros or the Lot of Necessity, and it is telling that in this case, it is the Lot of Eros with which the Lot of Basis is.

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Gryffindor wrote:
I am studying Cheiro for the past 23 years, not this book alone but all of his books ever written on any subject (including his book on poetry ). So , I give him a lot of credit.
Fair enough. I see now you were just trying to challenge the mystique he tried to build around himself. Its certainly legitimate to challenge that. Still when all is said and done he seems to have had some gifts of prognostication. Although, I think it just as likely his prediction on Edward VIII came from a Palmistry reading for him. Still, I find his concept of sign periods interesting.

Since you have made a long term study of Cherio can you tell us any more about that?

Also are you aware of any other books by Cheiro that touch on the subject of mundane astrology?

Gryffindor wrote:
About the Indian independence and Israel as a state, I am not going into further debate about it. Because I dont agree with you. Things were decided long before 1930 and it was also seen that the future King i.e. King Edward VIII would not be right person when the time comes. He had to abdicate when the time came. So, an unusual way to quit. A love affair. A love by a King who had never shown any sign of settling as a married person before . Morals and principles are for us, the common people. The things in the upper level have different plan and they are carried out as a 'Game'.
Your welcome to disagree. Debate is what Skyscript is about! If you have any evidence to support your theory I would genuinely like to see it.

You seem to be suggesting a kind of establishment conspiracy against Edward VIII while still Prince of Wales which was determined to make him abdicate once he became King. You also seem to be suggesting this was unofficial state policy prior to 1930.

If you were discussing the mid 1930's onwards I can certainly see factors that made him cause concerns. For example, his apparent support of the miners and unemployed which the right leaning Conservative led coalition government found politically uncomfortable. Equally, his developing enthusiasm for Hitler and the Nazi regime.

Having said all that I doubt abdication could have been forced on him before WWII except because of his highly controversial choice of partner to be his wife. There were fundamental legal, religious and nationalist objections to Wallis Simpson. Although, there certainly is an argument that key figures like Prime Minister Baldwin and the then ArchBishop of Canterbury may have colluded to make Edward abdicate in 1936.

However, you are suggesting this had all been decided over a decade before? Sorry, but I dont think that view is historically credible. If you believe otherwise please provide a source to support this unconventional interpretation of history. As you are challenging the conventional understanding of British history the onus is really on you to support your case with some supporting evidence. Otherwise, I can only conclude you have formulated your theory from an unsubstantiated 'hunch'.

Gryffindor wrote:
I mentioned 'Cheiro's World Predictions few months back in Skyscript along with prediction about King Edward the VIII. According to the publisher the Manuscript was sent to him for publication in October 1925. I am always intrigued by the Cheiro. When I say myth of Cheiro. You need to read all of his books.
I missed that thread. Would you mind giving me the link please?

Gryffindor wrote:
He deliberately creates an aura of mystique about him which I am certain is false.
Yes. I am sure your right about that. Although he is not the only astrologer to have done that.


Gryffindor wrote:
Mundane Astrology is in my opinion the most difficult branch of Astrology and no wonder that you are rightly intrigued.
I agree it is. As mundane moderator here I also try to keep up with as many sources on the topic as I can. Cheiro had completely escaped my attention. However, I agree Mundane astrology is probably the hardest branch of astrology to demonstrate any practical utility for. Our success rate as prognosticators leave a lot to be desired. However, I have a deep love of history and politics so mundane astrology brings all my interests together in a fascinating way. I see this as a life time study. Hopefully by my 70's I will have solved some of the riddles of mundane astrology!

Gryffindor wrote:
...Page 217 (Cheiro's World Prediction)

That Buddhists (Cheiro stayed in India?) and Muhammedans will join together to make India a united nation, is out of question....
Yes this seems incredibly naive. Anyone, conversant with India would know that Buddhism has been an insignificant factor in Indian society since the middle ages. It certainly makes his claim to have visited India less credible. In a crude way though could this be seen as discussing partition into the separate states of India and Pakistan? Or am I being too generous here?

regards

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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I am quite sure that by 'Buddhists' he meant Hindus and not the practitioners of Buddhism per se. Hinduism was not a religion but a philosophy, until the British made it so under their brainwave of 'divide and rule'. Cheiro was talking about the Partition and the independence of India seventeen years before it happened. I am quite sure neither Gandhi, nor Nehru nor even Jinnah had either of the two in sight.
As in all fields of art, we need to look at the failings of the artist quite distinctly from the brilliance of his art.

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Mansoor wrote:
As in all fields of art, we need to look at the failings of the artist quite distinctly from the brilliance of his art.
Well said! I have been trying to say the same thing in this thread but you have put it far more succinctly and eloquently

Mark.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly