On 1 September 2013 Mark wrote:

While I accept you may be motivated in part by sincere curiousity here I also strongly suspect you are seeking this information (in part) to shoot down in flames anything Ryan Kurczak says or does on Jyotish. I didn?t open this thread to provide a platform to promote tropical vedic astrology. I was simply reporting its existence. I do not believe this thread or forum should be used as a staging post to attack it either.

I was going to let this go, but as your comments have been bothering me, Mark, I'm replying now...a bit late. Your suspicion is quite wrong and an unfair accusation. I am honestly interested in the research that has convinced Ernst Wilhelm to return to the tropical zodiac. This evening I have been able to listen to part of his class on the ayanamsa and nakshatras. (No video, so my computer handled the load...).

Ernst is obviously dedicated, honest, and convinced of the value of his research. He is clearly dedicated to finding the ultimate truth of astrology as he states he believes there is only one true very ancient system that has been lost in the darker ages from which we are only now beginning to emerge. (This is per Sri Yukteswar's explanation of yuga dating.)

In all honesty, I'd very much like to see the details of his research. All Ernst has mentioned is that he has made prasna work effectively with tropical signs. There are also hints that he has found that qualities of the tropical signs are effective. I wouldn't disagree with that since (as I've said several times already), the sidereal signs are being misinterpreted by almost everyone.

So, really, I'd like nothing better than to be in a classroom with Ernst and discuss in detail specifics of his research. If zodiac discussion on this forum turns into a war zone, that is only the fault of astrologers who are unable to peacefully discuss conflicting views: that is, lack of objectivity combined with emotional immaturity.

Therese

Dear Therese,

I am a new member of this erudite forum, though not new to the field of divination and astrology in general.

If someone or several or many wish to apply jyotish framework using tropical or sayan (zero ayanamsha) zodiac, I personally do not see any problem! Jyotish for as long as I have observed it, for some decades, has been experiencing the reality (and banners?) of many ayanamshas and unlike the 80s and 90s and earlier (pre-Internet?) now many newer (but older?) equations etc have entered into the picture and some who may recall the geocentric vs geotopical days of our youth, are now faced with the ultimate quandry: Is Indian (hardly Indian any more, Thank God!) Jyotish, sidereal, tropical (as per NASA routines) or this resurgence of Surya Samhita Math that some are propagating and vouch on it being the KEY!

In the meantime, meanwhile -- practicing jyotishis seem to be getting by, just fine, though quietly using their worldview and understanding of Jyotish tools!

I think, we all here, like a community if we are a community should encourage diverse approaches and thoughts and patiently observe what our siblings have to share...!

I hope, as a newbie, amongst you -- unknown and from nowhere -- I have not encroached upon or broached any rules of conduct (Sabha Maryada, as it is known in social circles and communities)!

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

I'm happy to see you on Skyscript, Rohini! I remember your name from some years ago. I suppose it was on a forum, but I can't remember any details. Perhaps on the ADB forum?

In the meantime, meanwhile -- practicing jyotishis seem to be getting by, just fine, though quietly using their world view and understanding of Jyotish tools!

I think, we all here, like a community if we are a community should encourage diverse approaches and thoughts and patiently observe what our siblings have to share...!

It's true that in their personal practice astrologers manage to use multiple and various divinatory systems to their satisfaction. Does this make them all equally valid? I'd say only within the consciousness of the practitioners can they be called equal. If put to the test these various systems cannot produce equally valid results.

Let's take as an example the exaltation of the Sun in Aries, a standard astrological position of strength for the Sun. Can an Aries Sun produce the same results in two zodiacs? If in Aries in the sidereal zodiac, the Sun will actually be in tropical Taurus. An Aries Sun in tropical Aries will fall in the sidereal Pisces area of the sky. (Except for the 5 or 6 degrees of sign overlap)

As examples, I've been testing Sun positions in ascendant mansions in the sidereal zodiac. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7562

So for the Sun in Aries mansions (Krishnamurti ayanamsa) we have figures of power and authority. These will fall in the Venus ruled sky area of tropical Taurus. (The exact solar degrees and occupations are listed in the link above.)

Then let's go to the mansion of Rohini, the beautiful and desirable daughter of Brahma. Is it an accident that the Sun in this ascendant mansion produces a collection of people whose emphasis in some way is sexual (a psycho-sexual therapist plus homosexuals of both genders) as well as a group in the entertainment and music area? Isn't Venus said to rule sexual charisma, relationships and music rather than Mercury? All of Rohini's stars fall in tropical Gemini whose lord is Mercury.

Sometimes I check to see if there really seem to be boundaries between sidereal signs. For Pisces, the sign prior to Aries, there are two Reveti Suns in 28-29 degrees of Pisces in my mansion/sign research: A politician-attorney interested in the occult and a comedienne who can imitate 100 persons. A politician might perhaps come under Aries, but what about a comedienne who can produce so many persons from his inner psyche? (Remember that sidereal Aries has the traits of tropical Taurus...which, by the way, are not Venusian.)

I believe that the nuts and bolts of objective research can show us that the various systems don't all come out as equals. This is the scientific side of astrology rather than the divinatory approach which many (perhaps most) astrologers use in practice. The astrology may not be quiet right, but the intuition or psychic facilities of the astrologer smooth over contradictions.

At any rate, welcome to Skyscript, Rohini!

Blessings,
Therese

Therese Hamilton wrote:I'm happy to see you on Skyscript, Rohini! I remember your name from some years ago. I suppose it was on a forum, but I can't remember any details. Perhaps on the ADB forum?

In the meantime, meanwhile -- practicing jyotishis seem to be getting by, just fine, though quietly using their world view and understanding of Jyotish tools!

I think, we all here, like a community if we are a community should encourage diverse approaches and thoughts and patiently observe what our siblings have to share...!

It's true that in their personal practice astrologers manage to use multiple and various divinatory systems to their satisfaction. Does this make them all equally valid? I'd say only within the consciousness of the practitioners can they be called equal. If put to the test these various systems cannot produce equally valid results.

Let's take as an example the exaltation of the Sun in Aries, a standard astrological position of strength for the Sun. Can an Aries Sun produce the same results in two zodiacs? If in Aries in the sidereal zodiac, the Sun will actually be in tropical Taurus. An Aries Sun in tropical Aries will fall in the sidereal Pisces area of the sky. (Except for the 5 or 6 degrees of sign overlap)

As examples, I've been testing Sun positions in ascendant mansions in the sidereal zodiac. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7562

So for the Sun in Aries mansions (Krishnamurti ayanamsa) we have figures of power and authority. These will fall in the Venus ruled sky area of tropical Taurus. (The exact solar degrees and occupations are listed in the link above.)

Then let's go to the mansion of Rohini, the beautiful and desirable daughter of Brahma. Is it an accident that the Sun in this ascendant mansion produces a collection of people whose emphasis in some way is sexual (a psycho-sexual therapist plus homosexuals of both genders) as well as a group in the entertainment and music area? Isn't Venus said to rule sexual charisma, relationships and music rather than Mercury? All of Rohini's stars fall in tropical Gemini whose lord is Mercury.

Sometimes I check to see if there really seem to be boundaries between sidereal signs. For Pisces, the sign prior to Aries, there are two Reveti Suns in 28-29 degrees of Pisces in my mansion/sign research: A politician-attorney interested in the occult and a comedienne who can imitate 100 persons. A politician might perhaps come under Aries, but what about a comedienne who can produce so many persons from his inner psyche? (Remember that sidereal Aries has the traits of tropical Taurus...which, by the way, are not Venusian.)

I believe that the nuts and bolts of objective research can show us that the various systems don't all come out as equals. This is the scientific side of astrology rather than the divinatory approach which many (perhaps most) astrologers use in practice. The astrology may not be quiet right, but the intuition or psychic facilities of the astrologer smooth over contradictions.

At any rate, welcome to Skyscript, Rohini!

Blessings,
Therese

My dear Therese,

Thanks for the warm welcome, dear friend! Until you reminded me in your welcome message and that got me wondering too, "Where did we meet first in cyber-space or was it related to some cyber magazine or cyber society?"; anyways, whenever and wherever we interacted, to me it had always felt so natural and so never even a question or concern here :-)

I am thrilled to hear that you and hopefully several others are applying scientific rigour to astrologies of all types and I for one applaud you all. After a forty year long (big chunk of life!) and fairly successful career in biological science -- which brought home the bacon and still does in a tangible sense despite retirement (pardon me for the non-veg adage! I mean the 'bacon', not retirement <smile>) spanning research, regulation and so on -- I would be the last one to readily thumb my nose at scientific approach as we know and understand it.

I have great respect for the western astrologers, truth be told, who have made great strides in the global field of astrology in terms of documenting, examining, analysing and publishing and sharing their findings -- far and wide! Michel G. for instance! Even Carl Jung!! And the brilliant examination of Eyesenck and Nias in Astrology Science or Superstition, and I bet there have been dozens more that I might not have even heard of, let alone read!

The level of discussion, that I have seen here in merely glimpsing at the thread and the sustained passion always expressed but without (frankly speaking!) going bananas is very comforting to me personally!

I have always felt, sincerely, that Astrology and Divination is a Huge Mammoth and IT shall never get eaten and digested alone by any one mortal! And the more of different kinds and backgrounds of mortals, some scientists, some linguists, some historians, some psychics, some experienced in managing humans and some statisticians and engineers and many such more is the only way to digest and understand the mammoth!

In doing so, we shall all be truly receiving the Blessings of Ganapathi Who is the ICON ULTIMATE of Divination, by one religion.

In Sedona, Arizona, USA I visited some time ago, one of the energy spots, I was taking in the 'sights' and visited one of the energy spots which is a Christian Church with a history! On the left to its entrance behind you, is a naturally carved sculpture in red sandstone of Mother Mary holding a Child with two nuns in guard! To the right, behind you is a curious presence! Two naturally carved scultures in the same red sandstone carved by Airy Tattwa (Vayu). To the extreme right is the unmistakable and spiritual form of Ganapathi and next to him The Mammoth!

Anyways, thanks again for sharing your wisdom and kindness.

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan wrote:

I have always felt, sincerely, that Astrology and Divination is a Huge Mammoth and IT shall never get eaten and digested alone by any one mortal!

Amen to that! The more we work with astrology, the more we see new vistas continuing to open. And the more we realize how little we know. (The on-line chapter cited below, so familiar to Jyotish astrologers, is very interesting reading for all astrologers.)

"Astrology is too vast, both mathematically and philosophically, to be rightly grasped except by men of profound understanding."
Swami Sri Yukteswar in Chapter 16 ("Outwitting the Stars"), Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramhansa Yogananda http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap16.php

Hi Guys, My DOB is 10/Jan/1973 , 12 : 37 noon, kottayam. And I communicate with Mr Ernst Wilhem's student , but I firmly stand upon sidereal. I am an Indian. My chart has poorvabhdra in meen rashi in sidereal while utharabhadra in meen in tropical. Both system says correct things. But as per my side real its Ketu- saturn and in tropical it is Venus-Venus , which is terribly and absolutely wrong. I am sure that I am going through Ketu- Saturn and nowhere near my Venus Dsa which I am anxiously looking forward to be in. My star U/Bhadrapada doesnt suit me at all and I am 100% P.Bhadrapda.

I cant say tropical is wrong but I dont think it is as accurate as Sidereal.

Astrojunkie wrote:

My chart has poorvabhdra in meen rashi in sidereal while utharabhadra in meen in tropical. Both system says correct things. But as per my side real its Ketu- saturn and in tropical it is Venus-Venus , which is terribly and absolutely wrong. I am sure that I am going through Ketu- Saturn and nowhere near my Venus Dsa which I am anxiously looking forward to be in. My star U/Bhadrapada doesnt suit me at all and I am 100% P.Bhadrapda.

Are you discussing the Nakshatras on your Ascendant or Vimshottari Dasha periods?

In either case I am a bit confused why you think these would change for someone using the 12 R??i tropical zodiac? The Nakshatras or their planetary rulers dont change surely? The Vimshottari Dasha periods dont change either as I see it.

The Nakshatras is a purely sidereal system but one can still use a tropical rasi system and use the sidereal Nakshatras.

Mark

astrojunkie wrote:Hi Guys, My DOB is 10/Jan/1973 , 12 : 37 noon, kottayam. And I communicate with Mr Ernst Wilhem's student , but I firmly stand upon sidereal. I am an Indian. My chart has poorvabhdra in meen rashi in sidereal while utharabhadra in meen in tropical. Both system says correct things. But as per my side real its Ketu- saturn and in tropical it is Venus-Venus , which is terribly and absolutely wrong. I am sure that I am going through Ketu- Saturn and nowhere near my Venus Dsa which I am anxiously looking forward to be in. My star U/Bhadrapada doesnt suit me at all and I am 100% P.Bhadrapda.

I cant say tropical is wrong but I dont think it is as accurate as Sidereal.

Astrojunkie, Ernst Wilhelm has devised his own system of astrology using tropical signs, but applying traditional Jyotish principles. My opinion is that he has gone seriously off track, and you are safe remaining with traditional Jyotish Rasis and Dasas. The nakshatras (lunar mansions) are fixed against the stars in the sky and cannot change when tropical signs are used.

Also as I remember, Ernst Wilhelm has decided that the nakshatras should be based on the equator which changes the positions in longitude of some stars in the nakshatras. But anyone who studies a sky map with the ecliptic and equator marked can see that the Indian nakshatras align with the ecliptic. I have a map with the Indian, Arabic and Chinese stars marked, and only the Chinese system used the equator for their mansions. If Ernst Wilhelm places your Moon in Utharabhadra, this may be due to him changing the nakshatra stars from the ecliptic to the equator. I watched one of his videos sometime ago where he was describing the changed positions of stars.

Your Ketu-Saturn dasa/bhukti is correct for the present time.

Ernst Wilhelm talks about his research, but I have never found any of his research on the Internet. He may discuss research in videos, but that may be basically isolated incidents in his own life, and can't be considered valid research based on mathematical calculation.

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Ernst Wilhelm talks about his research, but I have never found any of his research on the Internet. He may discuss research in videos, but that may be basically isolated incidents in his own life, and can't be considered valid research based on mathematical calculation.

This simply isn't true, Therese.

Wilhelm spent 10 years translating Jaimini Sutras and delineates over 50 charts of famous people in his Jaimini course.

It works beautifully using tropical signs.

Don?t why you don?t invest just $29 to watch 100?s of hours of the mans research.

astrojunkie wrote:Hi Guys, My DOB is 10/Jan/1973 , 12 : 37 noon, kottayam. And I communicate with Mr Ernst Wilhem's student , but I firmly stand upon sidereal. I am an Indian. My chart has poorvabhdra in meen rashi in sidereal while utharabhadra in meen in tropical. Both system says correct things. But as per my side real its Ketu- saturn and in tropical it is Venus-Venus , which is terribly and absolutely wrong. I am sure that I am going through Ketu- Saturn and nowhere near my Venus Dsa which I am anxiously looking forward to be in. My star U/Bhadrapada doesnt suit me at all and I am 100% P.Bhadrapda.

I cant say tropical is wrong but I dont think it is as accurate as Sidereal.

Dear AstroJunkie:

Part of what makes it so difficult to assess these things is the extent to what can be found in a chart. For example, per the dashas, one needs to assess the full function of the planets running by dasha. So we need to know the exact reasons one feels they are in a particular dasha, then we need to know exactly what the planets are doing in the chart. I can understand why one would think they may be in Ketu/Saturn, yet maybe it can be seen through Venus Dasha, because Venus will be doing a lot throughout vargas by avashtas, based on planets position TO Venus. See the descriptions of dashas in chapters 59 and 60 of Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra. You will see how good or bad either dasha works depends on positions in the chart.

Too often I see people say things like, this birth time can't be right, or this dasha can't be right, or this zodiac can't be right, because of this one nakshatra, or this one planet.

The chart has to be looked at wholistically before a true assessment can be made in this regard. Again, that's what makes it so hard to actually assess these differences. Most people just base it off of their gut feeling, or a tradition they feel attached too. As it should be, that's human nature.

I only state this to give some perspective.

Also, Mark is correct that most astrologers using tropical zodiac still use sidereal nakshatras.

Satrunhead wrote:

Wilhelm spent 10 years translating Jaimini Sutras and delineates over 50 charts of famous people in his Jaimini course...Why you don?t invest just $29 to watch 100?s of hours of the mans research.

Videos are not research. Also I'm lucky to have one hour to watch videos, not to mention hundreds of hours. When Ernst publishes what he calls his research in hard copy, I'll be happy to read it. (I do have the books Ernst published before he changed his perspective on the zodiacs, and they are quite good.)

I wish there were even as few as five illustrated examples in print on the Internet that would tell us exactly what Ernst is doing with tropical signs. Presumably unless we take a course with hundreds of hours of video, we don't have a clue.

Ryan Kurczak wrote:

Also, Mark is correct that most astrologers using tropical zodiac still use sidereal nakshatras.

Hello Ryan,

Welcome to Skyscript. Good to see you here!

I think there are differences in where people start the calculation of the sidereal Nakshatras from though. While most Indian astrologers use Ashwini Nakshatra a minority still seem to use Krittka. As I recall from his MP3 Ernst Wilhelm has taken the radical step of advocating Mula as his starting point. I have forgotten the specifics of what his argument was for this from the MP3. Still, I know quite a few Jyotish astrologers favour this ayanamsa. More fundamentally, for calculation of dashas, Wilhelm has calculated the Nakshatras on an equatorial basis. Historically, I think this approach has some validity.

But such a radical stance undeniably leads to divergent boundaries for the Nakshatras and correspondingly leads to different calculation of dasha periods from the conventional use of Nakshatras.

I therefore think Astrojunkie may have been mistaken in thinking the issue is one of the sidereal vs tropical zodiac. He did mention differences with a student of Ernst Wilhelm. So I think the contrasting Nakshatra data Astrojunkie mentions may well reflect the conflicting Nakshatras used by Ernst Wilhelm vs the conventional Nakshatras. The issue is therefore one of two different sidereal approaches to the Nakshatras not the tropical vs sidereal zodiac.

Mark