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Did Valens use sideral?

 
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dragonqueen



Joined: 22 Jun 2013
Posts: 196

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Did Valens use sideral? Reply with quote

Hi
On his Anthologies it seems that Valens used sideral zodiac,although the Ayanamsa was of 8 degreees when it should have been of 13 .
Maybe he made a mistake but even Indians do not agree on correct Ayanamsa.Besides on book I he takes into account the fixed stars on the constelations when describing personality traits.
Some techniques by Ibn Ezra seems to suggest the same,like when he tells to draw a chart subtracting 8 degrees from every cusp and planet
What do you make of that?
thanks
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am getting concerned about the volume of quick posts that are being made lately, where posters don't bother to give proper references, so comments can easily be taken out of context, or members who might want to comment are put to a lot of trouble in trying to clarify what was said and where. This tends to discourage engagement in the discussion, so dragonqueen, can I ask that you give your references for the statements you make below.

I'm also concerned about a high volume of posts being made which are little more than a link, or a link with one comment, and inadequate explanation of what that link represents or why it is being recommended. I am wondering whether this should lead to a change of policy, but would certainly like to recommend that members don't create more than 2 or 3 threads a week - otherwise this forum is going to comprise of many questions that fail to generate interesting discussion.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi dragonqueen, this has been discussed several times, in one form or another, so you may find reading some of those discussions enlightening:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4359
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7341

To some degree part of the problem is in reckoning whether Valens knew of precession, and if so whether he cared, and indeed whether there was a tropical 'kind' of zodiac that didn't have 0 Aries as its beginning. Any of these are I guess possible. Some interesting discussions on that issue can be found here:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6546

(oops just saw Deb's comment about posting with just links, only for me to post with just...more links)
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dragonqueen



Joined: 22 Jun 2013
Posts: 196

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah sorry.
Its just that I havent been very busy recently and have plenty of time for this

Thanks Paul
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then hopefully you won't mind taking the time to give us your reference for this remark?

Quote:
Some techniques by Ibn Ezra seems to suggest the same,like when he tells to draw a chart subtracting 8 degrees from every cusp and planet
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dragonqueen



Joined: 22 Jun 2013
Posts: 196

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didnt read Ibn Ezra Book of nativities but an astrologer mentioned this on his blog.
The part on Valens is on first book and 9.To quote Martin Gasten:

By most ayanāṃśas in popular use today, the equinox would have been around 1-2° Aries at this time; but Valens seems to have used an old value of 8° (see IX.12, top of p. 162 in Riley's translation). He most likely wasn't aware of precession, which means it should come as no surprise that he relates the signs of the zodiac both to the fixed stars and to the seasons. (Several ancient civilizations used star phenome
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your post seems to have ended mid-sentence. The links Paul gave hold a lot of discussion on Valens, but I'm not aware of comment you attribute to Ibn Ezra, that we should subtract 8 degrees from the position of every cusp and planet. Can you give us the link to the blog page where this instruction is reported?
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dragonqueen



Joined: 22 Jun 2013
Posts: 196

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Your post seems to have ended mid-sentence. The links Paul gave hold a lot of discussion on Valens, but I'm not aware of comment you attribute to Ibn Ezra, that we should subtract 8 degrees from the position of every cusp and planet. Can you give us the link to the blog page where this instruction is reported?


http://astrosphera.blogspot.pt/search/label/Ibn%20Ezra

Here,but it is in Portuguese. I dont know which page it is,but maybe google translator can help.I dont have the book,cant help much here
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without a reference it's hard to know what to make of this, but I can't find anything comparable in the English translation of Ezra's Book of Nativities and Revolutions translated by Meira Epstein (ARHAT, 2008).
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presumably the 8 degrees relates to this:

pg 255
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=G_x6gl8SEeEC&pg=PA255&lpg=PA255&dq=End+of+the+book.#v=snippet&q=%22I%20shall%20now%20reveal%20a%20secret%20to%20you%22&f=false

Quote:
End of the book. I shall now reveal a secret to you.[1] (2) Know
that the beginning of the year of India is with respect to a point in the
zodiac;[2] hence the Ancients said that there are dark degrees, bright
degrees, and pits.[3] (3) The reason for the pits is that there are stars
with the complexion of Saturn and Mars; so when the Sun or one of
the planets faces them, it is like a person who falls into a pit.[4] (4) If you
want to know the location of these degrees, since they change their
position every year, today you must subtract 8 degrees and 5 minutes
from the place of the luminaries as well as of the planets.[5]


Last edited by Paul on Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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dragonqueen



Joined: 22 Jun 2013
Posts: 196

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logo, faça outra figura diminuindo 8 graus a posição do Ascendente e não te importes se o novo ponto estiver no mesmo signo ou em outro. No grau em que ele cair, aponta-o na segunda figura, pondo ali a Primeira Casa. Do mesmo modo, subtrai 8 graus da cúspide de cada casa, fixando assim as casas da segunda figura. Ainda do mesmo modo, subtrai a mesma quantidade [8 graus] a cada planeta, à Cabeça e à Cauda do Dragão e à posição de todos os aspectos, estabelecendo o resultado na segunda figura. Estas são as duas figuras

"make another figure deducting 9 degrees from the AC position and never mind if the new point lies in the same or another sign.Whatever degree it falls in put the first house there.
Deduct 8 degrees from each house, fixing the houses of the second figure. Deduct 8 degrees from each planet,the nodes and to every aspects establishing thus the result in the second figure.These are the two figures needed in this case"
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dragonqueen



Joined: 22 Jun 2013
Posts: 196

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Paul.Didnt know the book was available
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul - thanks for providing that link. To clarify, this comes from Ezra's Book of Reasons, not from the Book of Nativities as previously stated by dragonqueen (and the Portuguese blog). Being able to see this quote in context clears the matter up for me; I assumed that the opening post was suggesting that Ezra advocated that adjustment in his general technique, but we can see that he was explaining the calculation made by Indian astrologers.

Cheers
Deb
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