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Longevity judgement of world's oldest person
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Haydon



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 8

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Longevity judgement of world's oldest person Reply with quote

Hi everyone

It's my first post in this forum. My first language is not English therefore I hope I make myself clear here Tongue Out

Today I happened to see the chart of Jeanne Calment, who had the longest lifespan in history. She lived 122 years. Here is the link of her chart. (AA ranked)

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Calment,_Jeanne

Sun is the Hyleg at ASC, with Jupiter trine within 1 degree. Jupiter is the alcocoden however cadent and retrograde therefore can hardly give its max year. Actually Jupierter is peregrine so I am reluctant that it can only grant 12 years. Jupiter do not have other aspect other than with Sun, i.e. there is no other modification from other planet. (if there is, the conjunction with S. Node will deduct some years)

Another Sun-at-ASC chart is from Heath Ledger, which we've discussed in this forum.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6332
In Ledger's chart there are some dangerous signal and so is Jeanne's. The out-of-sect malefic Mars overcomes Sun.

I understand the lifespan calculated from Hyleg/Alcocoden is not an accurate number in most cases. But I do not expect the error could be so large. Am I missing something? Can anyone throw light on it?

Thanks!
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Yukionna



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Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if the concept of overcoming plays a role as far as the Hyleg and longevity are concerned. But if it does, one would have to take the overcoming of Mars by the much stronger Moon into consideration as well I suppose. Moon seems fairly benefic here (in Mrs Calment's chart), so maybe it has a mitigating effect on the malefic Mars.

If we make the Moon Alchocoden and give it max years (Moon oriental of the Sun, angular and in one of its dignities), we'd have 108 plus appr. 12 from Venus, but minus 15 from Mars. That would give appr. 105. I don't know what to do about the opposition with Mercury. It we'd consider it a malefic, it would further substract years. But even without that, it would still be wrong by 17 years. Maybe she ate a lot of yoghurt Cool

Ledger's chart has a c rating, not reliable enough I think.
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I looked at some primary directions, which is interesting given the length of her life. Her birth time, which is rated AA is given as 7:00 AM. Since she was not born in a hospital, I'm going to say that is an approximation, but not a bad one despite the birth record in hand. Primary directions are like aiming a gun. If the gun is elevated just a hair off the target (slightly incorrect birth time), and the target, in this case death date, is close, the bullet will miss by a little. If the target is way off, as in this case, it's possible to miss by a lot, without moving the gun. so I gave a few years fudge factor for primary directions hits the last years of her life.

She died on Aug 4, 1997 aged 122. She quit smoking at 118. Make of that what you will. I looked at the primary directions first at the time of her death and there was only one: The ASC directed to a dexter trine of Mars in zodiac, in April of that year. The only suspect direction prior to that was on 9/11/1994 a dexter square from the Sun (hyleg, life force) to Jupiter, ruler of the ASC in zodiac.

In May of 1998, 9 months after her death, a converse sinister square from the Sun to Venus (ruler of the 8th) occurred in mundo. If we follow Worsdale this probably isn't enough to kill, but maybe at 122 years of age it doesn't take much, even if you do ride your bicycle every day up until age 100.

For grins I cast her solar return for 1997 and in that return the natal 8th came to the ASC. I would imagine that in 122 years, this happened more than once. Saturn is of some interest in the SR because he is exalted in the sign of the ASC and is domicile ruler of the 4th house of endings. In the SR he is in fall in the 6th (Placidus) and has just set. Still I can't find much more here.

The secondary progressions are fascinating. I use Naibod. How often do you think you'll see the natal Sun trine itself by progression? Not often. The progressed IC is on the natal 4th cusp.

Transiting Jupiter is conjunct natal Saturn, ruler of the natal 4th, while this happened every 12 years, I wonder if it ever happened while Venus, lady of the natal 8th was in her fall?

If there are conclusions to be drawn from any of this, and I'm not so sure there are, they might run this way: she lived so long because whenever her natal Sun (hyleg) got into trouble that might have resulted in death, something was there to offset it. The nature of her chart, i.e. the planetary positions in the nativity, were placed so that lots of planets could not pile up with negative testimonies throughout the course of her life by progression or direction, so any nasty transits, and there may have been plenty, were just not enough. When the end finally came, as it must, it didn't take much to bring it.

There are a lot of directions, progressions, returns and transits to study here. It might be worthwhile to spend a lot of time with this chart. Born in 1875 and living to 1997 she certainly saw a lot: two world wars, spread of electricity, the time span between man's first flight and the first steps on the Moon all occurred while she was an adult, she saw the invention and spread of the telephone and lived to the beginning of the personal computer age, and much, much more. I hope she enjoyed it.
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Haydon



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 8

Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Yukionna

Yukionna wrote:
Moon seems fairly benefic here (in Mrs Calment's chart), so maybe it has a mitigating effect on the malefic Mars.
If we make the Moon Alchocoden and give it max years (Moon oriental of the Sun, angular and in one of its dignities), we'd have 108 plus appr. 12 from Venus, but minus 15 from Mars. That would give appr. 105.


Thank u for your response! I agree that Moon is rather benefic in her chart (angular, in her trigon, and receipted by domicile and bound ruler), but I wonder why it can be alcocoden. Jupiter has BOTH more points at Sun's position (by medieval definition) AND aspect with least orb.


Dear Tom

Quote:
she lived so long because whenever her natal Sun (hyleg) got into trouble that might have resulted in death, something was there to offset it. The nature of her chart, i.e. the planetary positions in the nativity, were placed so that lots of planets could not pile up with negative testimonies throughout the course of her life by progression or direction, so any nasty transits, and there may have been plenty, were just not enough.


From my knowledge (although i might be wrong, please correct me if so), a killing planet kills by direction when years granted by alcocoden is over. (and i know if anaretic diretion is too strong, one may not live till alcocoden dismisses) So if Jupiter gives only 12 year, we would judge her lifespan from directions after her age of 12.
I understand that 1997 is not a good year for her by direction, progression, revolutions and transit. But I found that there are more vital directions before 1997. For example, around 1932 to 1933, Sun directed to the opposite of Mars, and SAN directed to Mars. Two hylegical places afflicted at the same time is clearly quite nasty. I don't know if there is something protecting her that year.


And I recalled in the post of discussion of Ledger
margherita wrote:
Even Ptolemy in his chapter about the children not reared says that the lights is an angle with a malefic star the native will soon die.

And books on elections always say don't put Sun and the Moon at the Ascendant.

I would say her chart is a case like this. And malefic Mars looks highly potential in bringing violence during her life.


Last edited by Haydon on Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Haydon



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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apart from her longevity, I would like to raise discussions about her children. From a medieval point of view, all of 1st, 10th, 11th and 5th are rather or very fruitful sign. Although 5th house ruler moon is in a barren sign, she is quite strong and receipted. However, her only child and only grandchild died in their 30th.

I am not an expert on Hellenistic/Arabic Lots and I don't know if I missed some considerations here.
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I agree that Moon is rather benefic in her chart (angular, in her trigon, and receipted by domicile and bound ruler), but I wonder why it can be alcocoden. Jupiter has BOTH more points at Sun's position (by medieval definition) AND aspect with least orb.


Hi Hayden,
Alchocoden can be any one of the Hyleg's rulers, it doesn't have to be the one that has the most dignity at the Hyleg's position. And the Moon is angular, which makes it quite suited.

Quote:

But I found that there are more vital directions before 1997. For example, around 1932 to 1933, Sun directed to the opposite of Mars, and SAN directed to Mars. Two hylegical places afflicted at the same time is clearly quite nasty. I don't know if there is something protecting her that year.


That's quite interesting in relation to what Zoller calls the critical midpoint of the projected period of longevity, which can be fatal, but mustn't necessarily be. 1932 would put her at 57, which is still a bit off, as that would be half of 114 years, but still..
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Hellenistic teaching which was faithfully followed by the Persians/Arabs later on, the bound lord of the hyleg should be preferred if it beholds hyleg.

Here Venus beholds the Sun from the beneficent 11th but more importantly, she beats Jupiter as a domicile lord by having several dignities in the place of hyleg - kingdom/triplicity/bound!

She is able to grant her greater years due to the beneficent nature of the 11th, her considerable testimony in it (triplicity/bound) and her direct motion all of which yield 82 years.

Mercury is applying to Venus from the 1st and hence has to be considered. He adds his lesser years (20) due to being received and joined to a natural benefic by a harmonious sextile; as we all know, naturally impressionable Mercury is benefic when joined to the benefics and the opposite is true for the malefics. His accidentally malefic nature stemming from dejection/detriment is harnessed by reception and turned into good!

The angular Moon as a natural, unimpeded benefic is also applying to Venus by a harmonious trine designating a "milder" form of reception because of the benefic natures of the planets involved (sect-mates!) and by the nature of the aspect, adding its lesser years (25) into the mix.

82+20+25=127

Not bad at all for so ancient a technique Leery

Regards,
Goran
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Last edited by cor scorpii on Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good posts. Thank you all.

Just for the record, I wasn't looking at the alchocoden at all. John Worsdale, a late 18th early 19th century astrologer only used the hyleg. When some nasty directions ganged up on the hyleg without mitigation, the native died. He also noted secondary progressions and solar returns for confirmation. Her longevity made this method somewhat questionable because the birth time, if even just slightly off, at such a long life, the directions could be way off at the end.

Morin and others, when confronted with nasty direction, used the hedge, "death or danger of death." That way if the native survived, but was ill, the prediction was considered verified. Worsdale's book "Celestial Philosophy" except in one instance, dealt in hindsight astrology. We don't know how the one instance played out. Still his methods make sense.
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:

Here Venus beholds the Sun from the beneficent 11th but more importantly, she beats Jupiter as a domicile lord by having several dignities in the place of hyleg - kingdom/triplicity/bound! She is able to grant her greater years due to the beneficent nature of the 11th, her considerable testimony in it (triplicity/bound) and her direct motion all of which yield 82 years.


Robert Zoller quotes Ptolemy as saying:
the Alcocoden gives its middle years when it is oriental and succedent, especially in the 11th, and in any of its 5 dignities.
So that would give Venus only 45 years.

Quote:

Mercury is applying to Venus from the 1st and hence has to be considered. He adds his lesser years (20) due to being received and joined to a natural benefic by a harmonious sextile; as we all know, naturally impressionable Mercury is benefic when joined to the benefics and the opposite is true for the malefics. His accidentally malefic nature stemming from dejection/detriment is harnessed by reception and turned into good!


Yes, I wasn't certain about Mercury. But if it's a benefic due to the aspect with Venus, then, according to Ptolemy, in the case of the Moon being Alcocoden, Mercury would add its minor years and as many days as its major years ( because of opposing the Alcocoden. Otherwise it would give minor years and as many months as its middle years) That would be 20 years and appr 2 months. Plus the 105 I counted in my first post, that makes roughly 125.
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cor scorpii



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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Robert Zoller quotes Ptolemy as saying:
the Alcocoden gives its middle years when it is oriental and succedent, especially in the 11th, and in any of its 5 dignities.
So that would give Venus only 45 years.


It is a bit more complex than that because Zoller quotes Ptolemy only.

There are exceptions to that general rule, i.e. all the factors (and opinions!) have to be weighted and taken into account - when essentially fortified and direct (especially when also in sect), planets in 11th/5th can give their greater years.

Quote:
Yes, I wasn't certain about Mercury. But if it's a benefic due to the aspect with Venus, then, according to Ptolemy, in the case of the Moon being Alcocoden, Mercury would add its minor years and as many days as its major years ( because of opposing the Alcocoden. Otherwise it would give minor years and as many months as its middle years) That would be 20 years and appr 2 months. Plus the 105 I counted in my first post, that makes roughly 125.


The Moon 'cannot' be alcochoden if we abide by the rules (and I don't see why we shouldn't in this case) for even if one discards Venus for some "crazy" reason, Jupiter would have to be considered next, because it has far more authority in the place of the Sun than the Moon, which can be only 4th choice due to its status as the third, participating lord of the Sun's triplicity. Even Mars has more rights to be considered alcochoden than him, but one doesn't need to go even that far.

Venus has superior claim when compared to all the other candidates as she has most dignities in the place of the hyleg and in its own position in Capricorn in the 11th.
According to Dorotheus, (On the superiority of the places) the 11th house is the third best place (after the ascendant and the mid-heaven; the 7th house comes all the way down to 5th place, after the 5th house!)

Regards,
Goran
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yukionna wrote:
Robert Zoller quotes Ptolemy as saying:
the Alcocoden gives its middle years when it is oriental and succedent, especially in the 11th, and in any of its 5 dignities.
So that would give Venus only 45 years.

This would have to be a pseudo-Ptolemy, as the alcochoden method is not actually mentioned in the Tetrabiblos.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:

It is a bit more complex than that because Zoller quotes Ptolemy only.


I checked it, the exact part of text says: 'Ptolemy is quoted as saying' etc,etc
Apart from that I think it's all Bonatti upon which Zoller bases his writings on longevity.
Anyhow, I'm not trying to be stubborn about Venus, it's just that a number of years ago, when discussing this method on another board, I got quite a verbal lashing for wanting to give major years to a succedent Alcocoden.
I'll be more than happy to take it into consideration and see if I get better results.

Quote:

The Moon 'cannot' be alcochoden if we abide by the rules (and I don't see why we shouldn't in this case) for even if one discards Venus for some "crazy" reason, Jupiter would have to be considered next, because it has far more authority in the place of the Sun than the Moon


I think Jupiter is too weak. It's retrograde, peregrine and cadent in WS housesystem.
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Yukionna



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Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin Gansten wrote:
Yukionna wrote:
Robert Zoller quotes Ptolemy as saying:
the Alcocoden gives its middle years when it is oriental and succedent, especially in the 11th, and in any of its 5 dignities.
So that would give Venus only 45 years.

This would have to be a pseudo-Ptolemy, as the alcochoden method is not actually mentioned in the Tetrabiblos.


yes, you're right. It says a bit further down in the text (diploma course): Bonattii is refering
to an unknown translation of an Arabic work in which a pseudo-Ptolemy is quoted.
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Marius Cojoc



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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

msg deleted

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Zagata



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Posted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi everyone,

Interesting chart indeed and it caught my attention.
I have not studied it in any detail and there were not almost any events from Jeanne's life.
One thing that is certain is that her time of birth is really exact within a few minutes, though I suspect she might have been born a 2-3 minutes earlier, but this is not that crucial as the methods presented below are not meant in almost all cases to give the month or even the exact year of death.







Briefly,

The first thing I note is that the Sun is conjunct the Asc and thus potentially participates with the Giver of Years or overrides it. It holds Spirit, the day and the hour. It gives 120 years.
The more testimonies for such length of life or the more the chart disposition inclines to significant longevity, the stronger this indication becomes.

Directing the so called Lot of Hyleg to the malefics – the body of Ares kills, (Zeus in aversion this time, the Sun is afflicted by Ares and besides rules the place of injury and other calculations point to this being the end of this vehicle’s life) End result is 120.6 years. (That is why I suspect she was born a few minutes earlier, which would have more closely matched the 122.5 years)

The Moon meeting the condition for Apheta and directed to its tetragon. The benefics guard all figures thus preventing the malefics and ensuring maximum longevity. End result is 116 years.
While 6.5 years off, it is a very useful result that prompts one to pay extra attention to the changing Rulers of the Times and of the ingresses.


P.S. Chart calculated with the indispensable Delphic Oracle program.
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