skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Longevity judgement of world's oldest person
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 128

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zagata wrote:

The first thing I note is that the Sun is conjunct the Asc and thus potentially participates with the Giver of Years or overrides it. It holds Spirit, the day and the hour. It gives 120 years.


Ah yes, darn, I completely forgot about that, probably because this 'participater with the Hyleg' part of the text is a bit confusing. So just that I understand how you see it:
if there's any planet close to the cusp of 10 or 1, it either overrides the Alcocoden, or adds its years to it, as if it were second Alcocoden?
(I wouldn't give it max years though, because it's peregrine.)

But how is it used then? Because Sun is Hyleg here right? So it's Hyleg and Alcocoden at the same time. Or Sun is Hyleg, Venus is Alcocoden and Sun is participating Alcocoden? And how does one then add it all up?

I'm beginning to think this counting of years is just too unprecise and prone to misjudgements. Maybe one should really stuck to appointing the Hyeg and directions of certain promisors, like Tom and Martin seem to do. Oh well, I guess I really should start learning how to do that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The first thing I note is that the Sun is conjunct the Asc and thus potentially participates with the Giver of Years or overrides it. It holds Spirit, the day and the hour. It gives 120 years.


According to which source(s)?

The Sun can be both hyleg and alcochoden only when in its own domicile or exaltation and in one of the appropriate houses. The same goes for the Moon.




Regards,
Goran
_________________
http://7heavenastrology.wordpress.com
http://klasicnaastrologija.wordpress.com


Last edited by cor scorpii on Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:09 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 128

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like hitting my head against the computerscreen. You're right of course Goran, the Sun is neither strong enough to be participating Alcocoden, nor to be Hyleg and Alcocoden at the same time.

I reread the part that deals with the subject and will quote it, as I find it quite interesting and was always uncertain about how to apply it.

From Zoller's diploma course. lesson 10, page 7, point 4:

Quote:
'if there is any planet in the 1st house or in the 10th within 3 degrees before the cusp or 5 degrees after, make him participator with the Hyleg (note from Zoller: it's unclear if the phrase 'participator with the Hyleg' is intended to denote 'Alcocoden) whether he has dignity there or not.If he has dignity there he will be stronger than another who is outside the aforesaid places even if they have equal dignity there. Even if the absent planet were to have two more dignities than the present one. Should the planet so placed have no dignity in 1 or 10 he will be weak and contribute little.'


The way I read it now, it only means, that any planet on the cusp 1 or 10 will be Alcocoden (provided it is dignified enough), whether said planet has dignity in the place of the Hyleg or not. But the way it was interpreted on another board was, that if you had eg a Hyleg in one place, and an Alcocoden in another, and then a planet on cusp 1 or 10, then the latter would add its years just like the Alcocoden. So you had two Alcocodens really. And I thought that was what Zagata was refering to.

edit: well, kind of like a second Alcocoden. It would give years without having to aspect the Alcocoden. The number of years I can't remember. Probably minimum, wouldn't make sense otherwise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think Jupiter is too weak. It's retrograde, peregrine and cadent in WS housesystem.


A potential alcochoden doesn't get disqualified because of its essential/accidental "weakness" - otherwise it would be impossible to have an indication of a 'short(er)' life span.

Regards,
Goran
_________________
http://7heavenastrology.wordpress.com
http://klasicnaastrologija.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wolfgang



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Wr. Neudorf, Austria

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use Porphyry house system and just trying to use them as the so-called life years, resulting from this Alcocoden. I see the calculated number of life years also as approximative age, so to speak, the maximum possibility. I handle it with Zoller opinion Compliant (Tools & Techniques Book1, 65p). The arabesekten determining the Arabs settle and attributed according to their rules to come distort my opinion, the "Greek" traditions.

According to my calculations there are two Alcocoden Venus and Jupiter = Venus (m) = 45 + Jupiter 79 (l) = 124 YEARS as one maximum of years. -Sun is Hyleg.

Wolfgang


Last edited by Wolfgang on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:
Quote:
I think Jupiter is too weak. It's retrograde, peregrine and cadent in WS housesystem.


A potential alcochoden doesn't get disqualified because of its essential/accidental "weakness" - otherwise it would be impossible to have an indication of a 'short(er)' life span.


Well, I've been thinking about that the last couple of days, and I know that Zoller disregards Jupiter as Alcocoden in an example chart, because it's cadent, although it had the most dignity at the place of the Hyleg. Sorry to refer to the diploma course again and again, but that, together with tools and techniques, are the only texts I have on this subject, apart from a bit of Ibn Ezra.

I might agree with you though if we didn't know the age of the native, as in mystery charts. But here we do, so we look at it from the retrospective position. And then we see a very old lady with a weak Jupiter, and I just don't see how it could be Alcocoden in this case and still add up to 122 years. So I would go with 'your' Venus, which is quite nice being the bound ruler and all that, but it's oriental, which is not considered Venus' most favorable position, esp. not in a feminine sign, being the out of sect benefic, and succedent, so I'm still doubtful as to whether we give her max. years. And Moon has, as you pointed out, not much dignity in the place of the Hyleg, and is also out of sect, so is not so hot either.

Also I'm not sure if Moon and Mercury can give their full minimum years, as they're both afflicted by out of sect malefic Mars.

Does anyone actually has any idee on whether the malefic nature of Mars is mitigated by being overcome by the Moon? I mentioned it earlier on in the discussion and would really like to know.

Anyhow, I'm probably being a pain in he butt to you Goran, sorry, I just have too many questions still. Peace :-)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Haydon



Joined: 06 Feb 2012
Posts: 8

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad to see all the replies. Many replies are really insightful. Thank you all. Now I would like to summarize my current approach to this case and raise soeme more questions based on your replies.

My summarized approach:
Thanks to cor scorpii, I found I am kind of short-sighted to pick Jupiter as alcocoden. Maybe the tight aspect between Sun and Jupiter makes me forgot Venus has 3 dignities at Sun. After all, whole sign aspect is a kind of aspect too. And I did hear of Hellenistic approach prefers bound lord of predominator (as long as they can see each other). A small doubt for Venus-as-alcocoden is whether Mercury add or deduct years. Nevertheless, the numbers are close, and I would prefer to adopt primary direction after a rough number from this approach. And according to Tom and Zagata, a very close lifespan can be therefore derived.

My comments and questions:
1) To Mr Dracon
You referred Jupiter and Venus as two "stones" of life. Do you make this metaphor because they are domicile lord and bound lord of sect light respectively? Noted that Hellenistic astrology both has a preference for bound lord (which Venus wins), and strongly emphasize sect (which Jupiter wins), it's really hard for me to pick up a more dominating one.
Marius Cojoc wrote:
Helios and Zeus were joining in trigonal figure before the birth. Because Helios is the fastest moving planet, it leaves the relationship it had wearing the attributes of Zeus. I'm pretty certain that Helios inherit a tremendous power of life.

Just in case that I am not misunderstanding you, are you suggesting Sun-Jupiter aspect is strong because this aspect is separating?

2) To Zagata
Zagata wrote:
The Moon meeting the condition for Apheta and directed to its tetragon. The benefics guard all figures thus preventing the malefics and ensuring maximum longevity. End result is 116 years.

I'm totally agree that Moon meets all requirements for Hyleg except that Sun at 1st house in a diurnal chart. Nevertheless, both luminaries are strong is a good indication for longevity.
And thank you for pointing out the concept of spear-bear. I used to be a bit confused at different definitions of spear-bear: there are 3 types in Hellenistic and Ptolemy has his own. In this chart, oriental (Ptolemy's definition) and diurnal planet Jupiter casts his ray to Sun in a preceding degree (Hellenistic definition), and occidental (Ptolemy's definition) and nocturnal planet Venus casts her ray to Moon in a latter degree (Hellenistic definition). This is a prefect example of spear-bear!!!
I used to regard spear-bear is a method for predicting eminence, however this chart makes me think the literal meaning of the word "spear-bear", i.e. protecting luminary from being hurt .
I recalled that Curtis Manwaring said spear-bear can reduce maltreatment. Maybe this is the reason why a malefic Mars did not play his role during Jeanne's life. (yes, I used to be curious about it and Yukionna seems to be so too)

3) Two Hylegs? Two alcocodens? Discard alcocodens? Hyleg & alcocoden interchangeable?
From my knowledge, the general approach for lifespan calculation is: determine (the only) hyleg -> determine (the only) alcocoden by dignity and aspect with hyleg -> rough lifespan derived from alcocoden -> (possible) precise death time predicting from PD, SP, SR, etc
In this post, I found some insightful ideas which may not follow the above approach:
I'm not sure whether Zagata suggesting double hylegs.
cor scorpii seems to suggest sometimes an accidentally strong alcocoden is more preferred than alcocoden holding more dignities and aspects.
Yukionna suggests that a planet tightly conjunct Asc or MC can serve as a second alcocoden. Actually I've heard similar doctrine, which originally states "benefic adds their minor years when conjunct MC or Asc, and malefic deduct their minor years when conjunct Des or IC"
Since there are variations of determine alcocoden, Tom seems to discard it and calculate lifespan from PD directly. But I have some problems here. What if the native came across a strong anaretic direction at young age? Should we judge he/she will be alive? I know some of you will suggest to observe SP, SR charts, but I would prefer the simply concept of alcocoden - to protect until its year ends.
Mr Dracon suggests Jupiter (instead of Hyleg Sun) directed to aspects of Mars indicates death. Zagata suggests Sun itself (Hyleg itself) gives years (which is a function of alcocoden). Now I am considering, whether Hyleg and alcocoden are changeable?
I am to welcome more discussions with this captioned issues.

4) Last but not the least, the delineation of her children
Haydon wrote:
From a medieval point of view, all of 1st, 10th, 11th and 5th are rather or very fruitful sign. Although 5th house ruler moon is in a barren sign, she is quite strong and receipted. However, her only child and only grandchild died in their 30th.
I am not an expert on Hellenistic/Arabic Lots and I don't know if I missed some considerations here.

I would like to raise discussion about this as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And then we see a very old lady with a weak Jupiter, and I just don't see how it could be Alcocoden in this case and still add up to 122 years. So I would go with 'your' Venus, which is quite nice being the bound ruler and all that, but it's oriental, which is not considered Venus' most favorable position, esp. not in a feminine sign, being the out of sect benefic, and succedent, so I'm still doubtful as to whether we give her max. years.


Finding alcochoden is a process of weighing all pros and cons of particular planet(s)' overall condition.

It is next to impossible to find a planet in an ideal condition fulfilling absolutely ALL conditions for providing particular set of years - as always in astrology, it boils down to a judgment call of astrologer and while we should stick to the rules which provide reliable guidelines, we shouldn't follow them blindly to the letter.

In a real life, planets contrary to sect and on the 'wrong' side of the Sun can be found to perform contrary to what theory would have them do more often than not - because other important factors throw their weight in and 'even up the score', so to speak.

As for Venus, she is always better posited in a feminine sign, regardless of her phase because this is in agreement with her essentially feminine nature and nocturnal sect.

Quote:
Also I'm not sure if Moon and Mercury can give their full minimum years, as they're both afflicted by out of sect malefic Mars.


I have to disagree again, because both are way too distant from Mars and not joined (the Moon is separating on top of that!) but are joined to a banefic Venus instead; both aspects are within a three-degrees range which represents a particularly powerful bond. So Venus clearly wins out according to a fundamental astrological principle which postulates that the closest aspects are also the most forceful/powerful and overrule the more distant ones - especially those still out of orbs and/or separating.

Mercury is actually more afflicted by being retrograde and entering the beams - but then again, a powerful Venus is offering reception which certainly alleviates the harm to a certain extent.
I've forgotten to mention in my previous posts that he's also in the house of his joy/in his bound so this should offer additional help.

Quote:
Does anyone actually has any idee on whether the malefic nature of Mars is mitigated by being overcome by the Moon? I mentioned it earlier on in the discussion and would really like to know.


The Moon is in the 10th sign from Mars but I don't see why/how it should mitigate its malefic nature, as it doesn't rule Mars and is separating on top of that.

Quote:
Anyhow, I'm probably being a pain in he butt to you Goran, sorry, I just have too many questions still.


No, you're not Wink
This wonderful forum is here for the purpose of providing us with a chance to exchange our opinions and learn from each other, because we all have our questions waiting to be answered.

Quote:
cor scorpii seems to suggest sometimes an accidentally strong alcocoden is more preferred than alcocoden holding more dignities and aspects.


How did you come to this conclusion? Very Happy

Regards,
Goran
_________________
http://7heavenastrology.wordpress.com
http://klasicnaastrologija.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 128

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:

It is next to impossible to find a planet in an ideal condition fulfilling absolutely ALL conditions for providing particular set of years - as always in astrology, it boils down to a judgment call of astrologer and while we should stick to the rules which provide reliable guidelines, we shouldn't follow them blindly to the letter.


I agree. I just don't want to fall into the trap of bending the rules so that they 'fit'. I'm not saying others or you do that, I'm not always so certain as far as I'm concerned though.

Quote:
So Venus clearly wins out according to a fundamental astrological principle which postulates that the closest aspects are also the most forceful/powerful and overrule the more distant ones - especially those still out of orbs and/or separating.


Quote:
The Moon is in the 10th sign from Mars but I don't see why/how it should mitigate its malefic nature, as it doesn't rule Mars and is separating on top of that.



But when a planet is overcome by another planet or light, it's dominated even if the aspect is only WS, so regardless of any orb, separation, application and also rulership.
I always thought this was pretty much the strongest kind of influence in a chart.


Quote:
cor scorpii seems to suggest sometimes an accidentally strong alcocoden is more preferred than alcocoden holding more dignities and aspects.


Quote:

How did you come to this conclusion?


I didn't, Haydon did. Or was your question to him?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zagata



Joined: 15 Dec 2011
Posts: 89

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Haydon and others,

Clarification is required on what I wrote before one gets misled even further. Reread carefully my initial post.

I never said the Sun is Giver of Life or of Years; it could participate with or override the Giver of Years, but one needs more testimonies for such longevity, and I showed them.
As I said, that was the first thing I noticed when I looked at the chart, it was not in any way the major one.
By the way, I read about this 3-5 degree Asc-MC rule in Bonatti years ago, but I think it is also present in the Persian Nativities book I or II.

I did not use the Perso-Arabic method of longevity but a much older one of which the "Hyleg-Alcocoden" doctrine is a mixture or spin off.
What looked like mere primary directions were in fact a full method of longevity, which uses not primaries but the rising times of the zoidia.

That is why I said I had not studied this chart and hence did not insist that the Moon is the Apheta. First of all, the chart could be nocturnal, especially with a crooked zoidion rising, and even it is diurnal it is no 100% guarantee that the Sun is the Giver of Life as there are many exceptions to this doctrine. But anyway, if the Sun is the Giver of Life then its directions should if not show the length of life be at least close to it, and it is not even close, whereas with the Moon it really works.
Anyway, as I said that is not the first method of longevity to be used. I am ok with the Sun being the Giver of Life, this does not potentially stop it from participating with the Giver of Years or length of life.

I did not mean spear-bearing at all. If you check the forward path of the Aphetic points in question you will see that benefics guard the forming figures (aspects in modern parlance) preventing the malefics from cutting the life "prematurely".

So what I did with the chart was use different methods for longervity. Neither the Ptolemaic, nor the Perso-Arabic method are complete within themselves.
What I shared was from Valens.


Thanks again for bringing up that nativity, Haydon, Smile I have added it to my research folder.
My last comment is that this chart is truly rare in that Aphrodite not only is the confine lord of the Asc, both the Lights, and Fortune, but is in its own confines and trigon and very close to its maximum elongation and of course having most dignity in the Asc and averse to both malefics. A very long life indeed!
_________________
Complete written horoscopes with Ancient Western Astrology and Four Pillars of Destiny:

https://100percentastrology.wordpress.com/


Last edited by Zagata on Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:42 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 580

Posted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But when a planet is overcome by another planet or light, it's dominated even if the aspect is only WS, so regardless of any orb, separation, application and also rulership.
I always thought this was pretty much the strongest kind of influence in a chart.


Well, orbs (separation/application) and rulership (reception) matter very much.
It makes a great difference if one of these/more of them are present in a certain constellation or not.

Why/how would the Moon's dominant position in the 10th from Mars matter in this length of life calculation since Mars is wholly 'out of the picture' regarding both Mercury and the Moon, as I've already explained?



Regards,
Goran
_________________
http://7heavenastrology.wordpress.com
http://klasicnaastrologija.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Marius Cojoc



Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 47
Location: Romania

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

msg deleted

Last edited by Marius Cojoc on Sat May 03, 2014 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 128

Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cor scorpii wrote:

Why/how would the Moon's dominant position in the 10th from Mars matter in this length of life calculation since Mars is wholly 'out of the picture' regarding both Mercury and the Moon, as I've already explained?


Because if overcoming should indeed be more dominant than any other aspect, and I'm not at all certain about that, then Mercury could probably not give his years, because it is overcome by malefic Mars. Edit: unless Mars becomes less malefic by being overcome by benefic Moon, in which case I don't now how much of a difference that would make.

Your questions and statements have challenged the way I though about all this, tnx Goran. I will now get back to the thread on overcoming I started a while ago and reread it, as I have the ungood feeling I might have it all wrong. I'm running around in circles with this chart.
If I should 'see the light' I will let you know Cool

Best, Yuki
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated