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Nixx wrote:
''The Sun and Moon, the two luminaries, are assigned to the two signs that correspond to the brightest and warmest times of the year in the Northern Hemisphere, Cancer and Leo. The other planets are assigned to signs by halving the zodiac between Cancer and Leo and assigning each planet to one sign on the solar half and each on the lunar half. Mercury is assigned to the two signs next to the luminaries, Gemini and Virgo, because it never travels more than one sign away from the Sun. Venus is assigned to the next two signs, Taurus and Libra, because it never gets more than two signs away. Jupiter and Mars are assigned to their signs Sagittarius and Pisces, and Aries and Scorpio, respectively, in this same way. Finally Saturn is assigned to Capricorn and Aquarius because of the cold and lack of light during this time of the year''
The rulership scheme is based on what some call "sacred geometry". I, too, feel that Ptolemy is trying to give a rationale explanation for it based on simple astronomical and climatological observations of his time. However, this falls a little short from the scheme's deeper implications. From my perspective, in it you find summarized all of astrology's basics (including aspects), and it can be extended to modern rulerships as well (for those of us who accept these). Thus it is for astrology something like Hermes Trismegistos' Tabula Smaragdina for alchemy.

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Paul wrote: [
I am not stating that I actively believe that this position is how domicile dignity emerged, merely that it's worth not treating Ptolemy's view on it as being representative of some older rationale for assigning domicile dignity, and instead could be just his own attempts at rationalising why the dignities are as they are, or, rather, start where they do.
You lost me here and there in your reply.

Focusing on this Para, perhaps this real or mythical 'source' text from the one known as Hermes Trismegistus if found might indicate he rolled a couple of dice and 'divined' the beast. But this seems unlikely since the odds of getting 7 rolls of two dice to fall in a manner which facilitiates this system seems improbable, or he rolled them until he got the result he was after.

You could try and edit Wiki but you might incur the wrath of our RULER here, - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rulership.html

Martin might well provide an interesting, perhaps a Sidereal- Jyotish, slant on this issue. Bringing human nature in you might expect in the event the rulership system was a Greco-Egyptian construct once the Indians got wind of this, or precission was a more known conundrum, some if not all might have sought to represent it.
Last edited by Nixx on Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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James_M
seems like the thread went on a serious detour.
Fair comment.

Perhaps if we avoid any further space discussing the sidereal zodiac here it would be a start.

However, the issue of how seasonal the origin of the domicile rulerships are is relevant I think.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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Thanks James, fixed it.

I don't see any catastrophic detours,( athough I often find these more interesting for various reasons).

With this Seasonal hypothesis I would be interested in any alternative ideas, Sidereal or otherwise.

If you go with the idea horoscopy is a way into the ''inner workings of the cosmic soul '' (the Schmidt-Greene lens, or pretty much) it might seem odd to think this 'soul' was so devious as to seek to fool people with the need to switch meanings dependent on which side of the equator you were born on, or even switch zodiacs! Then again human history, and behaviour, might suggest a more unpleasant 'soul' energy at play here.

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Nixx wrote:
With this Seasonal hypothesis I would be interested in any alternative ideas, Sidereal or otherwise.
I think the best thing would be to create a new thread on the origin of the domicile rulerships and the signs. That seems to be where we are heading here. We seem to be morphing well beyond the parameters of the southern hemisphere issue.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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i liked debs response at the beginning of the thread.. i also enjoyed reading the thread that mark shared in his first post - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... sc&start=0

i suppose it's normal for the issue of tropical verses sidereal to become the focus, on this topic that i personally view as un resolvable..

i agree with marks early comment -
Mark wrote: Take my word for it. If your looking for dead simple give up astrology now!
i view astrology as having a connection to the seasons, although i have always lived in the northern hemisphere and don't know how i would view it if i lived in the opposite hemisphere. as someone else pointed out, the solstice and equinox remain the same for either hemisphere, but the meaning of the signs or rulers of the signs might not make as much sense once a person gets into this split brain phenomena of everything being divided into 2.. it is one earth, but it is 2 hemispheres.. isn't there something about the earth rotating on a particular slant and it not being split into 2 hemisphere thinking? maybe this is the basis for debs quote from her first post..

i have quoted nixx's comment from yesterday below.. i think this is the symbolic function of mercury to split everything.. allow me the opportunity to quote Buddha - 'the mind is the slayer of the real'.. maybe i didn't quote it correctly, but it has always stuck with me how in our attempt at getting at the truth we need something more then the mind to do it.. call it the higher mind or use jupiter as a symbol for our potential to see beyond the duality of life to get at the essence or truth of our universe. this is how i see astrology working.. if people want to get caught up in the details - no surprise their - so be it.. others will let the universe speak to them with an open heart and mind and remain receptive to new insights or revelations over the course of life. no doubt my comments will be taken a couple of different ways here!
Nixx wrote: If you go with the idea horoscopy is a way into the ''inner workings of the cosmic soul '' (the Schmidt-Greene lens, or pretty much) it might seem odd to think this 'soul' was so devious as to seek to fool people with the need to switch meanings dependent on which side of the equator you were born on, or even switch zodiacs! Then again human history, and behaviour, might suggest a more unpleasant 'soul' energy at play here.

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james_m wrote:
i have quoted nixx's comment from yesterday below.. i think this is the symbolic function of mercury to split everything..
To resolve this South North issue isn?t that difficult in theory,

2 groups of a few thousand 7 year olds, (not conditioned by astrological expectations, remove those with mums who read sun sign columns, etc) so you might want to go kidnapping in the Amazon rainforest or Northern Siberia. Get a few Neuroscientists to wire their brains up, some Child Psychotherapists to analyse their behaviour over a few months, etc should enable one to know with a fair degree of certainty if Child A/ was noticeably resonating to Aries or Libra' energies' or neither. You could also measure the Sidereal Zodiac at the same time.

The alternative is look at natal charts and saying there's no way Obama is a Cancer or an Aquarius. Can?t you see how warm , generous and vain he is you deluded fool. This may be a valid comment, in our esoteric cyber thought - space, but would be laughed out of the psychology dept with much justification. An experiment like this might not disprove any hypothesis, but it would say currently it can?t be supported, so come back later and in the meantime keep the faith, or lose it.

Ps ? ??something more than the mind??, are you losing yours?
:x
Last edited by Nixx on Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The op started with the erroneous assumption that the equator marks a climatic boundary on the earth. Anyone in Brazil or Nairobi might argue.in former times all astrologers had a school atlas with the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn marked out
Matthew Goulding

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nixx,

that was funny! i was mostly thinking of how this dividing everything into 2 - in this example - north/south - is the basis for a lot of split brain thinking where logic is always seen as the final arbiter in the matter. i don't think we can answer everything with logic.. that was mostly what i was trying to convey.. you will probably be able to take something i have said here and make a good laugh out of it too!

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james_m wrote:nixx,

that was funny! i was mostly thinking of how this dividing everything into 2 - in this example - north/south - is the basis for a lot of split brain thinking where logic is always seen as the final arbiter in the matter. i don't think we can answer everything with logic.. that was mostly what i was trying to convey.. you will probably be able to take something i have said here and make a good laugh out of it too!
Humour is often a defence against anxiety. You might have been going into this complex terrain Curry got into in his last paragraph to Greene, in Cosmos and Culture. We could go there one day but not on this thread, thus my brief aside.

Hand touched on this area in his podcast when stating in his view that if mind/soul are epiphenomena of the brain (which they probably are, as far as I can see!)then astrology is ''irrevocably impossible'' the way it is generally understood today.