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Tropical zodiac and the Southern hemisphere
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Mjacob



Joined: 17 Nov 2011
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The op started with the erroneous assumption that the equator marks a climatic boundary on the earth. Anyone in Brazil or Nairobi might argue.in former times all astrologers had a school atlas with the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn marked out
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixx,

that was funny! i was mostly thinking of how this dividing everything into 2 - in this example - north/south - is the basis for a lot of split brain thinking where logic is always seen as the final arbiter in the matter. i don't think we can answer everything with logic.. that was mostly what i was trying to convey.. you will probably be able to take something i have said here and make a good laugh out of it too!
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Nixx



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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
nixx,

that was funny! i was mostly thinking of how this dividing everything into 2 - in this example - north/south - is the basis for a lot of split brain thinking where logic is always seen as the final arbiter in the matter. i don't think we can answer everything with logic.. that was mostly what i was trying to convey.. you will probably be able to take something i have said here and make a good laugh out of it too!


Humour is often a defence against anxiety. You might have been going into this complex terrain Curry got into in his last paragraph to Greene, in Cosmos and Culture. We could go there one day but not on this thread, thus my brief aside.

Hand touched on this area in his podcast when stating in his view that if mind/soul are epiphenomena of the brain (which they probably are, as far as I can see!)then astrology is ''irrevocably impossible'' the way it is generally understood today.
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

As Margherita Fiorello pointed out astrologers have been debating this since the renaissance! Astrologers such as Cardano and Campanella suggested the logical stance for an astrologer following the tropical zodiac was to reverse the signs. On the other hand Morin vehemently disagreed with this stance his in book Astrologia Gallica.

Mark


​I'm reading only now this thread- sorry for the late reply, Mark.
In effect in Cieloeterra, the tradition school lead by Giuseppe Bezza, they reverse the qualities of the signs, ie they reverse signs tout court.
For example Aries, being the beginning of the Fall in the Southern Hemisphere will be moist and warm and of long ascension, like our Libra, so it can be easily called Libra .
Anyway I'm a little uncomfortable with this, especially because the fixed stars remain to their place obviously, (they could not be flipped), and I don't like this, because signs'meaning cannot be easily parted from constellations and fixed stars, it's obvious that some characters of signs depend on stars of the background constellation.
So I don't reverse. Anyway in Italy it's rare to cast a chart for the other hemisphere, so it is not a major problem for us.

p.s. Russel Crowe is a manifest Aries, he could not be anything else, especially a Libra Sad
This is a screenshot from Phasis, the software based on Cieloeterra teachings


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Konrad



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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
Anyway I'm a little uncomfortable with this, especially because the fixed stars remain to their place obviously, (they could not be flipped), and I don't like this, because signs'meaning cannot be easily parted from constellations and fixed stars, it's obvious that some characters of signs depend on stars of the background constellation.


Margherita,

out of interest, how do you reconcile this view with the fact that the Tropical divisions are now around 24 degree out from the groups of fixed stars they are named after?
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margherita



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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Konrad wrote:

Margherita,

out of interest, how do you reconcile this view with the fact that the Tropical divisions are now around 24 degree out from the groups of fixed stars they are named after?


Konrad, I was sure somebody would write me something like that Smile

Anyway I believe that the precession is a natural phenomenon, just happens- putting the zodiac upside down a little less natural.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita - with one obvious difference, it is the kind of question an astronomer opposed to astrology asks all the time!

on the next mystery challenge i plan on offering a chart from the southern hemisphere.. whether someone will actually talk about the important role stars play in a delineation let alone the significance of the sid or trop zodiac to the nature of the chart will be especially informative! it never seems to get discussed and i am sure many would benefit from seeing someone put in practice what they talk about, even if it is after the fact or in a mystery chart exercise.. conjecture and theory seem to reign supreme on astrology blogs/forms.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote: Mar 21, 2014, 2:55 pm
Quote:
... the fixed stars remain to their place obviously, (they could not be flipped), and I don't like this, because signs'meaning cannot be easily parted from constellations and fixed stars, it's obvious that some characters of signs depend on stars of the background constellation.


Ciao Margherita,

This brings to mind a recent discussion I had with Paul (in the Uranus-Aries thread) about what would qualify a celestial object as a sign ruler. It made me come to think of the fixed stars of a zodiacal constellation as "ruling" - or being in strong affinity with - their corresponding sign. This could explain why both the tropical and sidereal zodiacs seem to work. However, they would represent two different levels. Whether one or the other is in accordance with your astrological observations would depend on which level to tune in to.

Greetings to Bella Italia!
Michael Sternbach
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Nixx



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Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This resonates with me; I am usually a chain smoking, milk guzzling Moon in Cancer, whereas when flying or mountaineering I chiiter chatter like a dollymop after a night on the pina coladas.

Prior to this epiphany, I was bewildered by the view 11 quirky organic archetypally unfolding images, and some scales, were unconsciously projected into the sky to help explain these ideal mathematical divisions. Synchronistically or divinely or handily or unknowingly or notheywerenotingly when these ‘searching’ constructs were more aligned.

http://cura.free.fr/quinq/01hand.html
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Konrad



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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

margherita wrote:
Konrad wrote:

Margherita,

out of interest, how do you reconcile this view with the fact that the Tropical divisions are now around 24 degree out from the groups of fixed stars they are named after?


Konrad, I was sure somebody would write me something like that Smile

Anyway I believe that the precession is a natural phenomenon, just happens- putting the zodiac upside down a little less natural.


I don't doubt it. Smile

I meant, practically, if you see some of the significations of the signs as stellar-based, how do you integrate that into a Tropical framework? Personally, I see it the other way around: some of the significations are, if not seasonally-based, at least based upon the Sun's rise and fall through the Equinoxes, and then subsequently imposed onto a Stellar measurement. I'm just interested to see how it works the other way around.
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margherita



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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Michael and Konrad, not sure I want to be involved in a discussion about sidereal astrology Smile

To be honest I believe both that fixed stars are connected to the signs' meaning, which is evident to me in Manilius or Firmicus, and on the other hand that there is solar meaning which is due to the fact that tropical signs are portions of the ecliptic, which is nothing else than the path of the Sun.

But this could be explained because astrology was born in a given Mediterranean/Eastern area in a period when the two zodiacs were almost coincident.
I have already written which I believe that exporting a cultural product in a different area has its pro and cons, something is necessarily lost.
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Margherita wrote: Mar 22, 2014 9:32 am
Quote:
To be honest I believe both that fixed stars are connected to the signs' meaning, which is evident to me in Manilius or Firmicus, and on the other hand that there is solar meaning which is due to the fact that tropical signs are portions of the ecliptic, which is nothing else than the path of the Sun.


Your mention of Manilius and Firmicus in this context is interesting. It's been a while that I have looked into their books and my recollection of them is a bit incomplete. But I recall quite vividly the wonderful Palazzo Schifanoia in Ferrara where you find a depiction of Manilius' system big style! Very Happy

Quote:
But this could be explained because astrology was born in a given Mediterranean/Eastern area in a period when the two zodiacs were almost coincident.


In Franz Boll's opinion (in his Sphaera) the Babylonians started out by dividing first the equator, later the ecliptic into twelve sectors that they named after the more or less coinciding constellations. (Interestingly, the constellation Libra was originally a part of the constellation Scorpio but was "cut off" in order to have a namesake for that sign.)

Waybread and Deb, I recall that you referred to alternative (or complementary) hypotheses regarding the Babylonian origin of the tropical zodiac in recent posts - such as the calculation of eclipses, or the orb of the Sun - and I would appreciate to hear more about these, if possible. Very Happy

Quote:
I have already written which I believe that exporting a cultural product in a different area has its pro and cons, something is necessarily lost.


This happens all the time. Yes, something gets lost, but something new gets created. It has always been the inevitable process by which evolution of the human species progresses. For example, without the influx of Greek-based Arabic knowledge notably via Spain and Sicily in Medieval times we Europeans would conceivably still be using wooden torches in the dark.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixx,

i had read that link at the bottom of your post before and it does relate to the conversation at hand. not sure how many are going to bother reading it though as your entertaining comment might motivate others to not consider opening that link you shared! kinda like opening a cracker jack box - you never know what you are going to get!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I joined this conversation only to counteract Mark's statement on March 15:

Mark wrote:
Quote:
But siderealists have their problems too. Like the growing disparity between the signs and seasons.

Of course that isn't a problem at all because the sidereal zodiac has no seasonal connection. However, Konrad seemed to indicate that he uses an equinox cycle in his work. I am not sure what he means by that, but it occurred to me today that while the focus on this thread is supposed to be on the southern hemisphere, has anyone mentioned even one seasonal trait that might pose a southern hemisphere problem?

Although I understand the tropical zodiac, I'm a bit fuzzy on what the seasonal traits might be. Of course there are the three modes (cardinal, fixed and mutable) that are said to be seasonal. However, Robert Schmidt has said these are not necessarily connected to seasons. (Which actually might help the southern hemisphere question.) Schmidt suggested other definitons for the three modes.

So what are the actual traits of the tropical signs that may pose a problem in the transfer to the southern hemisphere? (Understanding of course that there is no sharp seasonal division in equatorial regions.) Is the southern hemisphere problem only a problem in theory with no actual basis as we observe tropical signs traits?
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Nixx



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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
nixx,

i had read that link at the bottom of your post before and it does relate to the conversation at hand. not sure how many are going to bother reading it though as your entertaining comment might motivate others to not consider opening that link you shared! kinda like opening a cracker jack box - you never know what you are going to get!


Making the serious point that if you say both Zodiacs 'work' in effect you are saying neither 'works'. (Same for house systems). In the way we usually mean work of course, as in real or applicable to the life of a singular, unique or distinct human being.

Ideas such as Blasche’s Unified field theory- 4 zodiacs representing different planes of consciousness may be intriguing but embracing one of these ''problem resolvers’’ would require most astrology books being burnt tout de suite, from the east and west.

Hand's article is well known, in my view as an introduction to the 'original or authentic' Zodiac issue worth reading.


Last edited by Nixx on Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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