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And just to balance things out we have the serial killer Edmund Kemper with Saturn in Virgo on the ASC.
Oh, lovely, with Saturn in Virgo inside the 1st, I was really looking forward to reading about this kind of balance! :mrgreen:

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Aglaya wrote:
Oh, lovely, with Saturn in Virgo inside the 1st, I was really looking forward to reading about this kind of balance!
Here are two vocalists with Saturn conjunct the ASC degree. Donna Summer is Virgo rising too. I hope that has restored the honour to possessing Saturn in Virgo on the ASC? :D

Donna Summer:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Summer,_Donna

Nina Simone:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Simone,_Nina

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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hi mark,

as always you're a delight to read, and i miss your more regular presence here on the board, not to mention the astrological insights and wisdom you bring. oh well!!

i was reading the introduction to ben dykes book 'mashallah and sahl' the past couple of nights.. i had read over the sections of the book that motivated me to buy the book a few months ago, but only got round to reading his exhaustive intro after the fact! it is a bit backward, but hey.. at any rate he discusses the issue of houses and the concept of a planet being close or further away from the ascendant in his introductory remarks which take up a number of pages in the front of this book. the general view conveyed is that the further away from the ascendant while being in the same sign - the less powerful it is.. although now that i think of it he discusses the idea of power and doesn't like using that word to make the distinction. the angles are often referred to as the 'stakes' and etc. etc. it is interesting information for anyone wanting to better understand the topic on planets on angles from an astrologically historical perspective..

as mark knows, but which i don't feel like making public - i have a few planets close to the ascendant and decendant axis. this topic of just how much it matters whether a planet is in the same sign as the ascendant, or just how far off the angle and into the 12th is of great interest and personally relevant.. sorry i was unable to contribute directly. no one came to mind!! maybe that canadian astronaut(chris hadfield aug 29 1959 sarnia, canada 448pm - 18 cap rising) with saturn in cap and cap ascendant would have been a good one to use, but i forgot about it and don't have my charts organized in this way - planets in the angles..

thanks for sharing nina simone and donna summers charts. i don't know that i had seen them before - maybe nina's, but not donna's..

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Mark wrote: Here are two vocalists with Saturn conjunct the ASC degree. Donna Summer is Virgo rising too. I hope that has restored the honour to possessing Saturn in Virgo on the ASC? :D
:) Now, I forgive you! (I actually, love them!)

I studied Nina Simone's chart once- even with L1 on the Asc and with Venus inside the 1st, her chart doesn't initially look like a chart of a great singer. It contains one very intriguing detail- Mercury in a mute sign!

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Mark wrote:Aglaya wrote:
Oh, lovely, with Saturn in Virgo inside the 1st, I was really looking forward to reading about this kind of balance!
Here are two vocalists with Saturn conjunct the ASC degree. Donna Summer is Virgo rising too. I hope that has restored the honour to possessing Saturn in Virgo on the ASC? :D

Donna Summer:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Summer,_Donna

Nina Simone:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Simone,_Nina

Mark
Always a planet to the Asc. very important. Whether there is a little above or below asc.

The last two examples to show ... in case Donna Summer is assumed start of cancer around 2011 years when it was directly Pl trine Sa (5 capricorn) because Sa dispositor, So and Mo

If you're looking for important moments in her life is certainly one of them was a suicide attempt in 1976 (Pl 90 So) but even that would not be so important that So and Sa are not connected via two links. The first connection is by trine, and the other connection is via dispositor. So every passage through one of these points connecting both and has twice as important meaning in relation to that point are not connected.

The next aspect Pl on Sa, So was the ultimate

Of course, in this sense, the first passage Pl past this point in early 1960 had to have exceptional importance for her, but it should dig out from her biography...

Another example is even more evident with Nina Simone ...
Transit neptune on Sa (important planet in the Asc and Mo dispositor), transit Ur is on the sun, transit Pl is on the Ju (So dispositor) during the 2002/2003 course this heavy transits can be life threatening, what is in the end happened

In both cases, they covered all the essential points nativities with difficult transits including planet on Asc. which confirms the exceptional importance in level of importance of the lights in the horoscope.

Sorry for my english

Alex

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Tom wrote:
I forgot about that, but it seems so appropriate. Robinson played with kind of a contained fury. The game may have forced that on him or the game was most appropriate for his personality. Baseball is start/stop action, unlike say European football or basketball, which is closer to continuous action. This placement of Saturn is a good example of a native being able to control but not change his temperament.
'Contained fury'.. I have found that I'm very afraid of losing my temper or being in any way emotionally out of control, but the odd thing is - that when it happens and I am very angry (and this has only happened a few times and only as I've got older) I always surprise myself by being so angry and yet also completely lucid and in control *at the same time* - the fear doesn't abate and it's a ghastly thing to experience but, still. I think I can be at my most 'logical' at those times, strangely, but I think that's more to do with being able - through pressure - to cut straight to the essential / the expedient.

Interesting the stop/start element of the game, also with regards to Saturn.

Fascinating stuff

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Mark wrote:Hi Folks,

Thanks to everyone for their feedback here! I should have perhaps stated earlier that the discussion topic I was actually faciltating and leading last week was on the first house. But I had a couple of reasons for wanting to hone in on the issue of planets near the ascendant degree. Perhaps I should explain.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for sharing - funnily enough I've been thinking about the Gauquelin / cadency thing recently myself. It's one of those things that is difficult to resolve - where the houses begin and end, so entirely makes sense to pick planets very close to the AC for your discussion.

Thank you for sharing the Saturn AC folks - I have a book on Ficino somewhere I shall have to dig it out.

M

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aglaya wrote:
Mark wrote: Here are two vocalists with Saturn conjunct the ASC degree. Donna Summer is Virgo rising too. I hope that has restored the honour to possessing Saturn in Virgo on the ASC? :D
:) Now, I forgive you! (I actually, love them!)

I studied Nina Simone's chart once- even with L1 on the Asc and with Venus inside the 1st, her chart doesn't initially look like a chart of a great singer. It contains one very intriguing detail- Mercury in a mute sign!
It's interesting isn't it how Donna Summer and, say Mick Jagger (can't remember how close his Saturn is to the AC...) seem to go to both ends of the pole of the decadence of the music scene and then kind of shunning that side of things... I think Jagger alluded to this in an interview once, something about having periods where he'd become ascetic and just eat brown rice or something.. :lol:

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Aglaya wrote:
I studied Nina Simone's chart once- even with L1 on the Asc and with Venus inside the 1st, her chart doesn't initially look like a chart of a great singer. It contains one very intriguing detail- Mercury in a mute sign!
Simone never chose to be a singer. The managers of the Beatnik and Jazz clubs where she began to perform in the 1950's more or less demanded a Black performer would have to sing in their clubs.

She had wanted to be a classical pianist. Nina Simone was born and raised in North Carolina, to a poor black family. She began playing piano at the age of 4 and after finishing high school, she studied for an interview with the help of a private tutor to study piano further at the Curtis Institute, but was rejected. Simone believed that this rejection was related directly to her race, although Curtis began accepting black applicants in the 1940s and the first black graduate was George Walker in 1945 who went on to win a Pulitzer. Nevertheless, Simone carried the pain of what she felt was racial discrimination to her death. Simone moved to New York City, where she studied at the Juilliard School of Music. She originally started performing in clubs to fund her studies at Julliard but eventually had to drop out due to the cost of the tuition fees.

These experiences seem to have strongly motivated Simone to seek to fight racism and social disadvantage in any way she could. She was involved in the Civil rights movement and knew Martin Luther King personally. Her cover version of the classic song ''Strange Fruit' highlighted the deeply entrenched racism in the Southern US states and the ongoing lynchings of black men that continued to take place into the 20th century.

I think she perfectly expressed that Aquarian dimension of Saturn here since she doggedly sought to help transform the society around her through her art. Because her music and politics were so integrally linked her personal relationships were often sacrifced. At the same time she was an artistic conservative and also maintained classical music was a higher form of art than Jazz.

I dont think anyone could see her as a fluffy individual. She had a serious personna as a performer and could be a fearsome Diva. In fact Simone had a reputation for volatility. This in part no doubt reflects her extremely tight Mercury-Mars opposition.

In 1985, she fired a gun at a record company executive whom she accused of stealing royalties. Simone said she "tried to kill him" but "missed". In 1995, she shot and wounded her neighbor's son with an air gun after the boy's laughter disturbed her concentration!

According to one of her biographers, Simone took medication for a bi-polar condition from the mid-1960s on. This wasn't known publicly until after Simone's death when the biography Break Down and Let It All Out was written by Sylvia Hampton and David Nathan in 2004.

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

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I wasn't going to make a post but today I noticed something rather interesting.

I have uranus one degree away from asc in 12th. Last Thursday transiting uranus was 12.37 aries which squared my natal uranus to the minute. I tripped and dislocated my toe.

Re: Planets on the ASC

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Mark wrote:Hi All,

I am facilitating a discussion on the ASC at my group this week but have very limited time to research natal examples of angular planets on the ASC.

So I am shamelessly putting out an appeal here. Do any of you have interesting examples of nativities with planets on the ASC?

All contributions gratefully received!

Mark
Mark,
Try this link
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrological_ ... rities.php

As first planet, take Ascendant
As second planet, select ( free)

You can change the orb.

I tried and found 1005 persons with orb < 0.5

Greetings, Ursa Major

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I'm not a famous person, nor would I want to be, but I have Jupiter and exalted Saturn on the AC, with Pluto in the 1st house. My Sanguine temperament is quite exaggerated, I am very generous, but along with my Saturnine qualities throwing the merrymaking for an unexpected loop, even my generosity has its limits and there are times when I know when to call it quits. Pluto adds some sort of mysterious allure to my presence but all it does is make me want to avoid attention even though I get noticed a little too often, much to my chagrin.

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