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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the partner easily slips into the role of an adversary and produces grief and suffering, the partnership is the cause of sadness and misfortune (Ibn Ezra and Guido Bonatti mention and discuss the general meanings of signs ruled by the same planet in a chart);


Oh my goodness, the cards are stacked up against the querent! Thank you for your detailed explanation. The tragedy of this situation is I think that if there was to be a reunion, the querent will reunite, because she is in love with this man. But let's see - I'm expecting some movement around April.

Can you direct me to where I can find this information:

Quote:
Ibn Ezra and Guido Bonatti mention and discuss the general meanings of signs ruled by the same planet in a chart


Thank you again.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ibn Ezra mentions the principle in "The Book of Reasons" (or is it really "The Book of Nativities and Revolutions"Confused I'm not quite sure which one it is, I'll try to be more precise tomorrow as I haven't got time to search for it now) and Guido Bonatti reiterates it in one of his famous "146 Considerations" (the 125th) http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/bonatti146considerations.html

However, the technique itself is much older than 12th/13th centuries as it is also found in Vettius Valens' "Anthology" applied in the delineations of the kinds of death caused by the combination of signs on the ascendant and the 8th sign from it - thus Aries and Libra are generally prone to bring about their own deaths.

Abu Ma'shar in "On Solar Revolutions" uses this method as well, when delineating the SR planets ingressing upon natal placements - so for instance, if SR Jupiter "returns" upon natal Venus, he takes the more authoritative planet's position (the one more essentially dignified in that position) and uses its domiciles as the ascendants relative to which the domiciles of the other planet are delineated. So if Venus were in Taurus, he would say that the native would get an inheritance (Sagittarius, is the 8th from Taurus) and that he would also acquire friends/fulfill some dream (Pisces are the 11th sign from Taurus). The same procedure may be applied to Libra/Sagittarius-Pisces relationship. If Jupiter's domiciles served as ascendants, the native would be sick that year (Taurus is the 6th from Sagittarius) and he would travel (Taurus as the 3rd sign from Pisces), etc.

Goran
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stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul you said

I'm not sure exactly what the Jupiter Uranus square may indicate, especially as they are not main players, and I haven't spent a whole lot of time with your chart, I just glanced really quickly. My initial feeling upon hearing of the quesited's father's death is that the Lord of 8 is in the 4th - and this may indicate something pertaining to the father's death and estate, perhaps some inheritance or family property or something of that nature.

Jupiter is surely in house 5 as it is 2deg from 5th cusp. I thought that if a planet was within 3 degrees of house cusp it was taken to be in the next house. Also Jupiter is in trine with Uranus not square. Otherwise I was very happy with your interpretation of this chart. I know you said you only had a quiick glimpse at it.

Stan
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My apologies stanstar, that was a slip regarding the square/trine. I simply repeated Taurus' comment "I would also draw your attention to the upcoming square of Uranus to Jupiter by retrograde action". Yes it is a trine, and I interpreted it as a trine. It's another reason I didn't focus on it too much and didn't think it was necessarily indicative of divorce, unless one which sort of naturally develops - hence the lack of dynamism I associated with the aspect.

Regarding the fourth and fifth, I usually take the time to say "fourth sign" or "fifth sign" when I wish to make sure I am paying attention also to the whole sign houses. I didn't in this instance. I actually tend to pay attention to the equal and whole sign houses for nearly every chart, or at least try to keep them in mind. What I was paying attention to in particular is that Jupiter is at the lowest point in the sky - being opposite the zenith. So for me it has a significance that we might associate with the 4th house symbolism.

I didn't mean to confuse anyone so I hope this makes sense.
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stanstar



Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh Scotland

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Paul, you do a wonderful job here anyway. I certainly learn a lot from your posts.

Thank you.

Stan
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Goran,
Thank you very much for the links and information, you are clearly a much more well read astrologer than myself Smile

Paul,
Quote:
I simply repeated Taurus' comment "I would also draw your attention to the upcoming square of Uranus to Jupiter by retrograde action". Yes it is a trine, and I interpreted it as a trine.

I stand corrected, my mistake. It is a trine. While Jupiter and Uranus are not the primary players, but Jupiter rules the 8th and 12th and the trine by retrograde to Uranus to me I think is saying something that I am unable to fully understand, but here's my take.

The 12th is the house of self-undoing, solitude, and also healing - in solitude. I read somewhere that Uranus in the 12th can indicate feeling deeply misunderstood. I know both the querent and quesited feel that way. The trine to Jupiter, the greater benefic, could indicate a healing of sorts that will take place for both the querent and quesited after much solitude in the 12th, this will be part of the reunion, and perhaps indicative of a "secret tryst" that may follow between the two as part of the reunion.

Keep in mind that families and friends of both parties are not happy with the "other" party and would prefer the reunion not take place at all. For this reason, the 12th could be considered a "secret reunion" that takes place between the two, they may reunite but carry on in the eyes of the world that it has not happened, just to keep things "simple", or as a safety precaution in case they may separate again.

Any thoughts on this take?
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with Jupiter is its retrograde motion and that's an accidental affliction. Whatever he may promise, he won't be able to deliver or if he does, it will be reversed and taken back - it simply doesn't last. Besides, the Venus/Mars conjunction will have a close encounter with Saturn first.


"The 12th is the house of self-undoing, solitude, and also healing - in solitude."

Sorry but I can't agree with that. It's just the opposite; "healing" in the 12th is just a product of modern NEW-age (psychological) nonsense i.e. wishful thinking with absolutely no support in real life. If it were so, then no house in a chart would indicate anything evil and everything would always turn out fine in the end, according to our wishes.

Even Mars, which is in its domicile there, is in the house of its "sadness", because the 12th is opposite to its joy in the 6th.

Goran
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Paul
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Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Goran

I mean more specifically a place of healing in solitude like a hospital- a place where we are not necessarily free to make full choices with our movements. But the dignity of Mars here having just entered its domicile suggests to me that actually this self isolation is a place where the querent may need to be.

So the 12th house is isolation and a place of moving away from the spotlight and seclusion and mostly this is akin to imprisonment but for me it can be a place of seclusion which may be what the significator needs.

I'm happy for anyone to disagree though, this post is more for clarity than to defend my view or hope to change anyone else's view.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an interesting update.

Another woman has come into the picture at this point in time. The querent has found out that her husband is "interested" in another woman, and while the relationship right now is not "romantic", but he wants to give it a shot.

Now we all agreed that the querent catches up with the quesited under changed cirucmstances, i.e. Venus changes signs before she catches up with Mars.

I decided to take another look at the horary if I could locate the "other woman" in this horary. I believe the other woman is Saturn in the 7th, which is the turned 5th (romance) from the quesited. Notice that Mars is within orb of trining Saturn but Venus prohibits this reception by conjuncting Mars first.

I also decided to take a look at the receptions and the strength of the planets involved.

At the time the question was asked, Venus is in its exaltation and triplicity, very strong. Mars in the face of Venus, I always get confused about this, please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it indicates that Mars receives Venus in its face, weak reception - (Or is it the other way round???) he's definitely not into the querent at this time.

Meanwhile, Venus is in Mars exaltation and triplicity, so Venus loves Mars much more.

Then Venus slips out of Pisces into Aries and catches up with Mars. Mars is now in the rulership and face of Venus, so Mars is now dignifying Venus. Mars receives Venus with great strength, he loves her again, and also gains strength by being in its own sign and face. BUT - Venus no longer receives Mars and goes into detriment.

Now I could be wrong in my interpretation of the receptions, in other words, it's the other way round, but it seems to fit if delineated like thsi Smile

There is also tons of reception between the Sun and Venus, which Lilly has said can be used as secondary indicators in relationship horaries. There is clearly still a very strong attraction between the querent and quesited.

Taking a look at Saturn at the time that the question is asked, it is weak and peregrine, albeit in the 7th house. I think the other woman is the more interested party. Mars receives Saturn only in its terms.

At the time that Venus conjoins Mars, Saturn is still weak and peregrine, and in the fall of Mars. Mars no longer receives Saturn at all. And Saturn is now in the fall of BOTH Mars and Venus. The "other" woman does not do very well when the querent and quesited reunite.

So- back to the "change" in circumstances. Since the querent has learned that he is interested in another woman, she is undergoing a change in her feelings towards the quesited, and starting to cool down considerably. Although Venus still chases after Mars - perhaps to keep the marriage alive - but she no longer receives Mars. Mars on the other hand loves Venus much more and loses interest in Saturn.

I think this is the "change' - the other woman and the feelings of the querent towards the quesited.

I think the two will be reunited, the "other woman" will be out, but the querent may not have the same feelings for the quesited as before, and will be in detriment.

Would love to have someone else's take on this.
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Taurus7



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Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think the two will be reunited, the "other woman" will be out, but the querent may not have the same feelings for the quesited as before, and will be in detriment


I wanted to add that the change in sign - or changed circumstances - apply to both Venus and Mars. The change in Venus is her feelings for Mars, "cooled down", and for Mars is his change in feelings for the querent - renewed interest, strong reception. One may question why the querent would reunite with Mars in the first place, given that "another woman" came into the picture, but I think the querent may do it for the sake of the marriage, and the strong attraction between the two parties.
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pankajdubey



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Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

reading all that who loves whom reception a la Frawley got me confused but Saturn can help as it is in the 7th, and would be collecting light between mars and venus as it is the most ponderous of the three, ahead and retrograde.

If you can allow two planets to cross the boundary and meet , just allow a few more degrees and even saturn can help.

PD
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
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Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per Lilly:

Quote:
Matters are also brought to perfection, when as the two principall Significators doe not behold one another, but both cast their severall Aspects to a more weighty Planet then themselves, and they both receive him in some of their essential dignities;


In this particular case, the two significators are coming to a conjunction and in fact conjunct before they cast their light to Saturn, so I don't think this is collection.
I still think Saturn is the "other woman" in the horary, based on the reception analysis in my previous post.
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cor scorpii



Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pankajdubey wrote:
reading all that who loves whom reception a la Frawley got me confused but Saturn can help as it is in the 7th, and would be collecting light between mars and venus as it is the most ponderous of the three, ahead and retrograde.

If you can allow two planets to cross the boundary and meet , just allow a few more degrees and even saturn can help.

PD


Saturn rejects any planet coming to him from the sign of his humiliation/slavery i.e. fall which is Aries.

Goran
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