Astrovedas wrote:

Interesting discussion: does anyone know when the now-ubiquitous 'karmic' interpretation of the nodes (ie, N. Node for future evolution, S.Node for the unassimilated past) first appeared in Western astrology? Isabel Hickey popularized this approach in the 70s, but I'm guessing it originally came out of Theosophy. Can anyone pinpoint an author or source? Thanks.

Welcome to the Skyscript forum!

You raise a really intriguing question. Of course this being Skyscript that interpretation of the nodes is certainly not ubiquitous. Traditional Perso-Arabic, European and Indian astrology have quite different perspectives. But I certainly accept that this interpretation of the nodes has become almost viral in modern astrology.

It is sometimes suggested that kind of Karmic association with the nodes is Indian in origin. But I have never found any support for that view. Many aspects of the chart can be seen as Karma or reflecting past life influence in Indian astrology.

So I think you are spot on in linking these ideas to Theosophy. But like you I dont know who originated these ideas. Maybe we should start our search at the beginning with Alan Leo and work forward?

I confess I haven't read much by Leo but he seems the logical prime suspect. He even published a book 'Esoteric Astrology' which may(?) cover the Karmic association of the nodes???

For anyone interested I would like to share an article by Martin Gansten (an astrologer and academic in Religious Studies).

''Reshaping karma: an Indic metaphysical paradigm in traditional and modern astrology''.

In the article Martin Gansten touches on how the Theosophists appropriated and altered Indian ideas like Karma.

http://www.martingansten.com/pdf/ReshapingKarma2011.pdf

It seems the strongly positivistic/evolutionary view of karma and rebirth found in the New age movement today had its origin in Theosophy. Its understanding of the terms karma and/or rebirth contrasts with the teachings of Indian religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

To quote Gansten:

I have already said that in Indian thought, sa?s?ra or the cycle of transmigration is a closed, beginningless system fuelled by karman. In Buddhism and Jainism this transmigratory existence is seen as a fundamental fact in itself, in no need of any further, underlying cause. In Hinduism, the world is typically considered as created by or emanating from God or the Absolute (brahman); but brahmanical theologians are also clear that the world is eternal, and its ?emanation? an ontological rather than a temporal relationship. The notion that creation serves some purpose is explicitly rejected; it is divine ?play alone?.

Mark

if you believe that the moon has something to do with the past, then it is a pretty quick jump to make an association with the moons nodes and karma.. karma has everything to do with the past.. i am not saying what i believe in any of it, but i am just saying the symbolic connection seems pretty obvious to me..

James_M

if you believe that the moon has something to do with the past, then it is a pretty quick jump to make an association with the moons nodes and karma.. karma has everything to do with the past.. i am not saying what i believe in any of it, but i am just saying the symbolic connection seems pretty obvious to me..

Hi James,

Your right of course that the Moon has associations with our past. But your rather missing the point that in modern astrology only the South Node is given that connection. The North Node is connected to future potentiality or if you prefer Karma.

Also I question your understanding of the word Karma. Its literally means 'action'. In Jain philosophy that is quite literal and gives equal weight to physical or mental action whether intended or not. In Buddhism priority is given to our thoughts and intentions. Karma can refer to our past, present and future in Indian thought. If you accept that concept we all carry our previous karma, create fresh karma in each moment and store up karmic seeds for our future. So in temporal terms its a misconception to think of Karma as just referring to the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Jainism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Buddhism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Hinduism

Mark

mark,

thanks.. i am aware of the more nuanced use of the word karma but thanks for going into it in more detail for anyone who might not be.. and you're correct to point out it is only the south node in modern astro 101 that offers this viewnd not the nodal axis more generally or the north node in particular..

James_M wrote

mark,

thanks.. i am aware of the more nuanced use of the word karma but thanks for going into it in more detail for anyone who might not be.. and you're correct to point out it is only the south node in modern astro 101 that offers this viewnd not the nodal axis more generally or the north node in particular..

This focus in modern astrology on the South /North Node as our past and future Karma rather reminds me of the use of the lot of Fortune and Spirit in ancient astrology. The former represents our fated destiny and was associated with the Moon while the Lot of Spirit was more about how we exercise free will in our life and was connected to the Sun. Hence the Lot of Fortune was connected to the body like the Moon while while Lot of Spirit was more reflective of spiritual and higher intellectual matters like the Sun.

However, these points move much faster in a chart than the nodes so they were arguably far more personalised horoscopic indicators. I suppose the philosophical dillemma I have with the lot of Spirit is how can our free choices or spiritual development be plotted out in a birth chart? You could say this is even more the case for the slow moving North Node.

Mark

Extensive work was done on the lunar nodes and eclipses by Carl Payne Tobey. In the 1930's he did statistical research on fires with US national data. He didn't find a patter until he only used fires with loss of life. The the eclipses and lunar bending (lunar nodes sq the Sun) popped up. Also, Charles Jayne specialized in eclipse periods. See Bill Meridian's book on eclipses sold by the AFA.

Tobey found no difference between the north or south nodes. He did coin the term Moon Wobbles to indicate the exact aspects of Sun to the lunar nodes in conj, opposition and squares. He called them periods of 'human instability'. People act irrationally and make mistakes hence the loss of life factor.

Please note that the November 2015 Paris bombing occurred with tMars conj the lunar nodes. Planets like Mars and Uranus on the lunar create mundane events. I have an old article on my website, www.LearnAstrologyNow.com on moon wobbles and I discuss them in my book, Foundations of Astrology on Amazon. I have a long article on nodes that I have not posted since it needs revision. ( ps. My revised website is not perfect yet and is still missing images with it's third conversion.)

So the modern take is that lunar nodes with hard aspects to the Sun, Mars or Uranus create major events and are worth tracking. There seems to be no difference between the north and south node by characteristics.