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oriental verses occidental and temperament
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3509
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: Liz Greene

Quote:
it is packed with jungian type thinking.. now, maybe jung and those who have studied him are all wrong,


I wonder about astrologers' take on Jung and non-astrologer psychologists take on him. I don't know a lot about Jung, but have a read a little, and from what I understand, which I admit isn't much, maybe it's not apples and oranges, but it's not apples and apples either.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
Posts: 519
Location: Switzerland

Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quoting Wikipedia on "Four Temperaments":

Quote:
Nicholas Culpeper (1616–1654), described the humours as acting as governing principles in bodily health, with astrological correspondences,[11] and explained their influence upon physiognomy and personality.[12] Culpeper proposed that, while some people had a single temperament, others had an admixture of two, a primary and secondary temperament.[13]


I find the parallel to Jung rather interesting, who stated that people for the most part incorporate one of four personality types, supported by a second type jumping in as helper if need be.

Not saying that the two systems are exactly congruent, nonetheless, this might offer some food for thought.

BTW, it may have been Dane Rudhyar who first made the link between Astrology and Jungian psychology. Though I don't always agree with Rudhyar, I am a great admirer of his work.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I know a fine astrologer who says the ASC is 80% of the chart. That's pretty good, and we aren't using 80% or ourselves to mask the other 20%


Lilly would say to look at the lord of geniture as the strongest influence, at least when he talks about complexion. Since the reason James asked about this topic is Frawley and Frawley is using Lilly as a source, I would recommend him just downloading Christian Astrology book III and looking at the source material. I studied it about 10 years ago and still remember it as useful info. It is easy to find through Google or through Skyscript's link: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

Lilly describes using the oriental/occidental, humours, seasons, etc. in appearance and health especially but I believe he also implies they impact personality. The main idea I got when I looked at my own chart before was to weigh the influences he describes and come to an overall scheme. For example, I am primarily hot and dry (choleric) but I have some melancholic influences, which is similar to how modern would deduce my chart as mostly fire and earth. If someone used the ascendant as my complexion indicator alone they would get an entirely different conclusion about my appearance and health (and personality).

But keep in mind that in book III he talks about complexion, manners, the mind, etc. using different techniques for each one.

I don't know who wrote this article, but here is some applied info:
http://www.medievalastrologyguide.com/medieval-temperament.html

CA, book III regarding the humors in general but specifically his application to complexion

Quote:
That Planet who hath most essentiall and accidentall dignities in the Figure, and is posited best, and elevated most in the Scheame, that he ought to be Lord of the geniture, and am confident the whole actions of the Native will more or lesse pertake of the nature of that Planet and so his Conditions, Complexion, Temperament and Manners shall be much regulated unto the properties assigned that Planet (consideratis, considerandis;) yet doubtlesse if any other Planet be very neer so strong as him whom we formerly mentioned, he shall much participate, and a kind of mixture must be framed according to the severall fortitudes each Planet hath, together with the aspects good or evill of the other Planets intervening: The Greeks did use to account that Planet Lord of Geniture who had most dignities in the place of the Moon or Mercury, for Mercury is the Lord, or hath dominion of the spirit and vigour of the mind, the Moon swayeth the body.


Quote:
Significators of the Complexion are
First, The Signe ascending, and Lord thereof.
Secondly, The Planet or Planets placed in the ascendant, or the North Node or South Node or the Planets partilly aspecting the ascendant.
Thirdly, The Moon and Planets beholding her within Mediety of their Orbs. Fourthly, The quarter of the yeer or Signe the Sun is in.
Fifthly, The Lord of the Geniture.
The quality of the Significators and Signes wherein they are placed are to be orderly examined; wherein you must not forget, that if either Saturn or Mars behold the ascendant or the Moon with a malevolent aspect, they intermix their intemperate qualities to the temperature of the body, yea, though all other testimonies concur very well.

The Quality of the Planets.
Saturn Orientall Cold and moyst. Occidentall Dry.
Jupiter Orientall Hot and Moyst. Occidental Moyst.
Mars Orientall Hot and dry. Occidentall Dry.
Venus Orientall Hot and moyst. Occidentall Moyst.
Mercury Oriental Hot. Occidental Dry.
North Node is as Jupiter, South Node as Saturn and Mars.

Moon –
From Conjunction to 1st Quarter, Hot and moyst
From thence unto the
Full, Hot and dry
From Full to her last
quarter, Cold and dry.
From the last quarter to new Moon, Cold and moyst.

The Sunne is considered according to the Quarter of the Yeere.
Spring } Aries, Taurus, Gemini Hot & moyst.
Summer } Sun in Cancer, Leo, Virgo Hot & dry.
Autumne} Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius Cold & dry.
Winter } Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces Cold & moyst.

Nature of the Signes.
Aries, Leo, Sagittarius – Fiery Triplicity, Hot and dry, viz. Cholerick.
Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn – Earthly Triplicity, Cold and dry, viz.
Melacholly.
Gemini, Libra, Aquarius – Ayery Triplicity, Hot and moyst, viz. Sanguine.
Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces – Watry Triplicity, Cold and moyst, viz.

Phlegmatick. Consider the qualities of the Significators and Signes, and collect the testimonies of every of the four qualities, viz. Hot, Moyst, Cold, Dry, according to the major testimonies, so judge of the Complexion. If Heat and Moysture overcome, the Native is of Sanguine Complexion: if Cold and Moysture, then he is Phlegmatick: if Heat and Drinesse, then cholerick: if Cold and Drinesse, then Melancholly

Consider the qualities of the Significators and Signes, and collect the
testimonies of every of the four qualities, viz. Hot, Moyst, Cold, Dry,
according to the major testimonies, so judge of the Complexion.
If Heat and Moysture overcome, the Native is of Sanguine Complexion: if Cold and Moysture, then he is Phlegmatick: if Heat and Drinesse, then cholerick: if Cold and Drinesse, then Melancholly.
You must deale warily in the collection of the testimonies of the four
Humours, of Heat, Humidity, Cold and Drinesse; for it may come to passe, that the qualities of the Planet and Sign may obtaine the same equall number of testimonies, and the one have as many testimonies of Heat, as the other of Cold, these being repugnant qualities, the one takes off the other, and they are not numbered or accounted: where there is no contradiction, these testimonies are accepted, when one Planet is Lord of the Geniture and Horoscope, you shall allow him in collection of the testimonies a three-fold vertue or influence in the Complexion: the Moon being in the ascendant, her testimonies shall be twice exhibited. The principall part hereof see in our subsequent Nativity.


Book III has a lot of useful info, such as how Mercury above the horizon tends towards oratory whereas below it shows a better artist. Again, he emphasizes planets above the earth being more extroverted and those below more introspective. These little tidbits I always found helpful. I like his paragraph on height and I think it even shows how I am tallest/thinnest in my family - the planet that beholds my ascendant ruler is Jupiter (tall), again in a choleric sign (more lean), although occidental (moderate height), so I am not very tall but above average, and especially given the height of my short family members (I am even taller than my father). One certainly would not come to this conclusion via my ascendant - Cancer, which would more likely make one think of a short, feminine and chubby person. One thing I always hear that I find funny is that we should have nice, large breasts and I have a flat chest, especially in comparison to my mother and three sisters, none of which have Cancer rising (I find it lucky since I don't have their back problems!). I am far too choleric (Mars in Aries oriental as Lord of Geniture to boot) to be that way and they are phlegmatic women. Cancer rising is also supposed to be moody, but Lilly says that when Mercury is stronger than the Moon, such as in my chart, reason rules. The ascendant has many limitations.

You can tell this information by looking at someone but sometimes we do read the charts of children and young people, and Lilly is saying you can predict things like height, weight, hair color, etc.
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