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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Saturn and Fears
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 972

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:16 pm    Post subject: Saturn and Fears Reply with quote

I have a very bad phobia of driving and have stationary Saturn in Virgo conjunct NN ruling the 8th in the 3rd in aspect with Mercury. Apropos, I am in a Mercury return and it is besieged currently, but I have a requirement to drive for work/family issues, after almost 10 years of not driving and need to purchase a vehicle (although the planets being in such a way is only increasing my fear). Are others with Saturn in the 3rd this terrified of driving, or perhaps Saturn in general showing a bad fear of something that holds them back in life? I normally look at Saturn for bad phobias.

Last edited by Tanit3333 on Thu May 17, 2018 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tanit,

i am sorry you're having to go thru this..

this is philosophical but i think it's related.. on some level, astrologers want to be able to know something about the future.. how much of this is about erasing the insecurities of not knowing what lies in the future? we can't know what the future holds although some astrologers would argue that you can know a lot..

for me astrology is about getting to know yourself better and probably a whole lot more. i admire you sharing what you're experiencing now and what you think the astro basis for it is. i think you're right to base it on what you do astrologically too.

have you considered your moon position? the reason i say this is i've found a lot of my ownl fears come out of my moon position. i've seen this in my friends and etc too.. something to consider.. i sometimes think the reason i am into astrology is to try to lessen the unpredictable nature of life, while also understanding myself and others better.

i hope you are able to work it out moving forward here..
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply. I don't believe a chart will predict everything in a person's life, but certain things may be more pronounced than others.
I find it strange that it is so debilitating at times, and it has been with me since childhood. I have met a few people with similar fears but never saw a similar chart (where a phobia may be shown). The only chart I can think of is Richie Valens, who feared flying, and he also had Saturn in the 3rd:

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Valens,_Ritchie
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james_m



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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

having this from childhood also strikes me as lunar in nature...
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am curious how the Moon would relate to fears? Saturn is the planet tied to what we fear, as well as the 8th house. My Moon makes no connection to Mercury and does not rule nor reside in the 3rd. For example, in Beethoven's chart, Deb mentions his Saturn square the ascendant bringing a lot of personal fears forward:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/beethoven.html

People with a lot of Saturn in their chart can be afraid of many things, such as change, having relationships, etc., depending on how their Saturn is signified. By being a slow planet and a malefic, it tends to show things that stop us from moving forward if we don't work on those issues. I think Saturn in the 3rd perfectly describes many of my fears, but especially this particular issue. I retitled the post because I suppose this is a more broad subject - Saturn and fears.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saturn relates to fears.. sure.. simple enough...

mercury and the moon are said to relate to the mind... mercury - the rational, logical and conscious part, and moon - the irrational, less logical and subconscious part... the term lunatic - has a moon connection right?

i have found the moon to have some influence on people and it is not rational.. it kind of defies the rational part of peoples thinking in some ways, especially if the relationship between mercury and the moon is not great.. i notice this especially in people who have mercury- moon in square or opposition... one part wants to be logical, but something subconscious or unconscious interferes with the process..

now, i could be wrong on this and fwiw i have my moon in about a 10 degree out of sign conjunct to saturn - so maybe it is harder for me to separate the 2..

i tend to think of the difference between mercury and moon like the difference between air and water.. the 2 elements don't really connect and are very different..

for everything that is conscious - something else has to be unconscious and even though folks tend to think they are going about their lives in a conscious manner, there are unconscious or subconscious elements that are also playing a big role in their lives too.. i chalk some of this up to these differences and while it might not fit into a neat format for the logical, mercurial types, i still think the moon plays a very big role in phobias, habits that are hard to break, subconscious positions or patterns from early childhood and etc...

i have observed this in my own subjective way and it is what i basically hold to.. take it and consider it or not...
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you are saying about irrational fears. The Moon is considered the most changeable body and adapts to what it aspects, so if it were in aspect with Saturn, that would make sense to me. Still, ultimately, Saturn is the one causing that influence on the Moon.

I don't think a fear of driving is actually irrational, though. There is a lot of responsibility tied to it and the likelihood of an accident is high enough to be concerned, especially when inexperienced.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's where we see it differently tanit... i don't think it is just based on being tied to saturn... in fact - any connection with the moon to the outer planets will do it too... the moon wants security and protection and the outer planets from saturn on out - do not provide it.. so, no - it is not just saturn influence as i see it..

of course there is nothing irrational about being concerned when driving.. most people know this, but it becomes problematic if there is a particular fear that seems like a major obstacle and one has to ask, why is that? you have to honour your fears, but sometimes you have to go into them and confront them too... in so far as astrology may help with this - all the power to you..
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, James... There is much to consider.

E.g., a cautious Virgo Sun will generally be much more prone to fears than a bold Aries Sun. Unless other influences come into play!

To really understand what's going on in a case like this, I think it's important to look at things in context, i.e., to take the whole chart into consideration.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Location: San Francisco

Posted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit,
My son has a phobia about driving. He's 30 and does not have a license. His saturn is square his sun although not in the 3rd. He does have mars in capricorn in the third. His eighth house not involved, As you mention, it's a difficult fear to overcome since driving IS dangerous. My son says he is terrified he will hurt somebody else, not himself. He has uranus in the third also.

My friend had a driving phobia and finally got her license when she was 36. Third house ruler is mars in virgo in the 12th along with saturn in virgo.

I sympathize with what you are going through.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to hear this Tanit

Saturn, like you say, is often where we feel fears or anxieties, and when the Moon is involved I think it can get to where we may see it's a phobia or perhaps an irrational fear. I personally think though that these kinds of fears are seldom about the thing we think they are but about something more life threatening or ego threatening, and I mean ego here in the sense of connoting our sense of who we are and what our place is in the world.

Perhaps the problem may stem, for example, from a feeling of loss of control of our surroundings, and this kind of thinking abstracted from driving may help start to build up some ideas about what is driving this kind of fear.

Maybe it would be useful to create a kind of word cloud where you write down words that relate to the fears you feel, imagine yourself getting into the driver's seat - are there any emotions or anxieties surrounding this? What does it feel like? Write it down. Then when you come onto the main driveway/road where you live, and when you approach a junction or someone cuts you up or you have to navigate changing lanes, or make awkward manoeuvres - how do you feel about all these things? No matter how silly or poetic or metaphorical, write it down.

Once it's on paper it can be helpful to look back over it and read it dispassionately, and, because you're an excellent astrologer, try connecting it to the chart and see if you can gain new perspectives that way.

Typically this kind of thing, from my experience with seeing other people who have similar kinds of fears or phobias, with loss of control or not being able to define the feeling of chaos and anything can happen kind of mentality - and then working with why this affects you. It can mean jumping from "why am I afraid of driving" to "why am I afraid of what I'm not in control of" or "why am I afraid of a feeling of being swept along" etc.

It may not work for you, but for the sake of doing a bit of writing down, I actually think it could be enormously useful as a place to start.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is some good advice you offer, Paul. I am going to mention it to my son the next time we talk about driving. Your and James' comments about the moon and irrational fears are apt too. My son has moon in the 9th opposite neptune in third.

This topic led me to considering people, like myself, who feel perfectly comfortable driving-- I even had a delivery job for a spell. What I came up with in my case is mars in scorpio--I feel "at home" driving. When I mentioned that to my son, that I view the car as an extension of myself, he found it helpful to think of it that way, rather than 2 tons of metal.
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moonbright



Joined: 21 Jul 2015
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Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit:

Astrologically, I would look at Mercury for more info as it has a significant influence here being the dispositor of both nodal positions (sign/house) and Saturn.

In practical terms, working with a professional driving trainer might be helpful since they undoubtedly work with people with driving phobias all the time - they probably know how to get to the bottom of what the fear is about and ways to ameliorate it. The downside, of course, is that it costs.

My story is much like @Donna Chang's: I have Mars in Scorpio as well and driving always felt like just another athletic skill to me. Is there some way to bring your Mars to bear in how you think about driving?

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Smile
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a chapter in frawleys book - the real astrology applied, titled 'the moon as mind".. it was funny seeing it the other day as i thought of this thread where i had said what i did..

here is the first paragraph from this chapter in frawleys book..
"one of the surprises on undertaking the traditional approach to natal astrology is to find how limited a role mercury plays in the assessment of the native's mental capacity, and how great a role is that of the moon.. "whyever is that sensitive little bundle of emotions getting involved in things of the mind?" we may ask.. so let us explore."

if i could simplify the chapter - it comes down to temperament and how important a role the moon plays in temperament... he talks about mercury being a servant- "better a dim servant who does what he is told then a brilliant one who thinks he is his own master; and mercury, the reason, is our servant."
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have Mars in Aries in the 10th and have never been athletic - just energetic. I am autistic, and the chaos of driving causes extreme sensory overload and anxiety.
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